excellent website on population

[UndercoverElephant]

It doesn't really matter whether Nick Griffin really believes what he's saying about peak oil, population and ecology, or whether he is being opportunistic. I personally see no reason to think he's faking anything, for the simple reason that compared to most other politicians, he's got little to lose by facing the truth on this matter. I think he genuinely believes the UK is overpopulated, and I think he's right. I don't agree with his race-based criteria for selecting who should stay and who shouldn't, but there's no direct connection between the two things. I also see no reason why he should be faking a belief in peak oil.

However nasty you think he is Nick Griffin, is nevertheless trying to stand up for the interests of the subset of the British people he thinks he represents (the "natives".) The problem a lot of people have with him (including me) is his belief that not all races should be treated equally, but that flaw in his ideology has nothing to do with ecology, sustainability or peak oil.

So...his motives are irrelevant. All that matters is that he is indeed filling a vaccuum left by the rest of the political world, all of whom are unwilling to talk openly about the scale of the problems because they're worried about seeming too extreme and scaring people. Nick Griffin doesn't care about that, because he's already viewed as extremely extreme, and likes scaring people.

[UndercoverElephant]

J2M wrote:

residual fear of Nazis most people seem to have

Yep- people with a brain and a heart.

I think that last comment is in extremely poor taste given one of their kind is currently on trial for murdering 77 young people.

how many people have our glorious democracy's killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, how many civilians did we kill in world war two and all the other wars we seem to constantly be fighting .

its all political violence, if he had burned alive 10,000 German children that would be fine, people got gallantry medals for raids where the main casualty's were German women and children .

And thats just democracy's not socialist or Marxist states .

I remain convinced that Jonny2Mad is not a real human but a fake persona invented by somebody on the political left in order to lampoon the far right.

[jonny2mad]

I am a real person at least 3 people on this board have met me

in person I'm really nice

although I may have a bleak view of things somewhat to some degree

[Ludwig]

I remain convinced that Jonny2Mad is not a real human but a fake persona invented by somebody on the political left in order to lampoon the far right.

So do you think the Far Right get a bad press UE?

[UndercoverElephant]

I remain convinced that Jonny2Mad is not a real human but a fake persona invented by somebody on the political left in order to lampoon the far right.

So do you think the Far Right get a bad press UE?

No. I think they get pretty much what they ask for.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

I think he genuinely believes the UK is overpopulated, and I think he's right. I don't agree with his race-based criteria for selecting who should stay and who shouldn't, but there's no direct connection between the two things. I also see no reason why he should be faking a belief in peak oil..

What race-based criteria?

To quote the BNP webby ,

The BNP’s policy is to:

- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain.

There is an issue of nationality there but nothing to do with race.

Not that I support the BNP but I do think it is very important to get the facts rights before burning witches.

[RenewableCandy]

A previous comment, along the lines of apparent "reasonableness" in print, and unreasonableness of the type of people who constitute the party's core membership, is probably worth re-stating here:

However, anyone who thinks the BNP's agenda starts and ends with reducing immigration is a ****ing idiot. They lure people in by trying to sound reasonable - though that's not easy, because behind Griffin's clever leadership stand hordes of knuckle-draggers incapable of hiding their true motives. Then, gradually, they up the rhetoric in a slow-boiling process until it becomes "normal" to express opinions similar to Hitler's.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Ohh, so we're ignoring what the witch actually does and what the witch actually says and just burning her because we say she's a witch.

Left wing business as usual then.

[RenewableCandy]

No. We're ignoring what the witch says and observing what the minions say and do.

And anyway, taken collectively they weigh far more than a duck

[biffvernon]

Witches are fine; it's the racist thugs that make up the these far right parties that need burning, at least metaphorically.

[SleeperService]

I am a real person at least 3 people on this board have met me

in person I'm really nice

although I may have a bleak view of things somewhat to some degree

Sometimes I don't agree with J2M but this time I think he's making a valid point. War IS Hell, terrible things get done by everybody, some more willing than others. If you're on the side that 'won' it's justifiable if you lose then it's a crime.

I know a guy who's a BNP member and have quite interesting conversations with him, we both respect each others positions on certain things and I went along to a meeting out of interest. There were a few 'knuckle draggers' there but most of those present looked exactly like the working class individuals they were. There was a reasonable level of discussion and debate which surprised me.

On the opposite side the local Labour Party seems to be full of people who look OK but are biggotted in the extreme, anybody who doesn't fit into normal needs an outreach worker or similar to help them into society. If you questioned anything you were lambasted for being 'off message'.

I find them both equally repulsive, I suspect most on this forum would as well.

I need to find my Holy Grail DVD and watch the witch trial in that again

[Little John]

Well, I'm pretty f***ing depressed, as a matter of fact, that whenever there is a debate on population issues, the frigging far right nutters get in on the act. I have seen this time and time and time again. They must be waiting in the wings on forums such as this, waiting for the chance to interject and turn the conversation along lines that they can exploit. All that is being discussed here now is the f***ing BNP.

Now, I know what some are going to say...

"Well, that's the reason why is shouldn't be discussed".

I disagree, since it is the very fact that is is not discussed in the mainstream that these frigging nutters get to own the debate.

I give up.

We're f***ed.

I'm giving up forums and any other arena of debate.

I'm giving up debate on this or any other issue. It's a waste of f***ing time. I'm gonna eat drink and be merry, cos there F--k all left to do....

That's it.

[woodburner]

I give up.

We're ******.

I'm giving up forums and any other arena of debate.

I'm giving up debate on this or any other issue. It's a waste of ******* time. I'm gonna eat drink and be merry, cos there **** all left to do....

That's it.

You'll be back when you're sober. There is a clue in your writing, alcohol depresses the nervous system, stop drinking the stuff (it's toxic anyway) and you will be less depressed.

[UndercoverElephant]

Well, I'm pretty ******* depressed, as a matter of fact, that whenever there is a debate on population issues, the frigging far right nutters get in on the act. I have seen this time and time and time again. They must be waiting in the wings on forums such as this, waiting for the chance to interject and turn the conversation along lines that they can exploit. All that is being discussed here now is the ******* BNP.

Now, I know what some are going to say...

"Well, that's the reason why is shouldn't be discussed".

I disagree, since it is the very fact that is is not discussed in the mainstream that these frigging nutters get to own the debate.

I give up.

We're ******.

I'm giving up forums and any other arena of debate.

I'm giving up debate on this or any other issue. It's a waste of ******* time. I'm gonna eat drink and be merry, cos there **** all left to do....

That's it.

I think it is absolutely inevitable that is the true extent of the shit we're in becomes ever-more apparent, more and more people will turn both to the far right and the far left. Some will give up on left/right politics altogether and sign up with the Jensenite anarchists who think civilisation is irredeemable, but a lot of people will vote for UKIP or the BNP. As for the labour party...

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2012/04/04/th ... or-labour/

On the other hand, the gradual ebbing of party popularity since that date, and the more we show signs of indiscipline or tolerance towards the views of the far left , the more we make them feel they have a toe-hold. The boundaries between our party and theirs blur, and become porous.

So, while Galloway himself is merely an irritation, the success of the far left at grassroots level means more. Bradford West is a point of inflection, and the soul-searching which follows will inevitably lead Labour in one of three directions. We may not have all the analysis to hand yet, but the options are clear.

The first, and least likely, is that it could jolt Labour to its senses. One reading is that Labour lost heavily, not because it had failed to provide a distinctly left alternative to the government, but because it had failed to provide any coherent alternative.

This, magnified by a number of local, organisational and one-off factors, led to the scale of the defeat. The remedial action is some clear policy direction and to shift Labour back towards the centre. But it is an unlikely course: if Miliband were lukewarm towards it before last Thursday, he now may decide to discard it, perhaps forever.

The second possibility is that Labour trots off to the left after Galloway, putting “clear red water” between Labour and the government. It decides, not to edge its way over the sanity threshold, but to sweep across it triumphantly with a full military escort. The cigar-clutching fingers of Galloway beckon us towards our electoral doom and we drift into the next election with the longest suicide note in history, reprise. Hopefully, also unlikely.

But Labour is now essentially trapped in a giant pincer movement, between a resurgent far left and a centre ground occupied by the government, whom we are not minded to attempt to oust.

So, the third, and most likely possibility is this: that the party will justify staying exactly where it is, rabbit-in-the-headlights, in the middle of the soft-left road.

And, indeed, Miliband’s message to party staff on Saturday seemed to indicate a failure of organisation, rather than any reflection on political strategy. Convenient, because tinkering with the organisation it is the one thing which, in opposition, you actually have the power to do. There may indeed have been organisational failure, but fixing it is a necessary and not a sufficient condition for a turnaround. The politics counts, too: people need to know as well what you stand for, and they don’t.

“We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road,” a mocking Nye Bevan once quipped. “They get run down.”

But there we may, for the foreseeable future, continue to sit. Never quite expecting that big truck.

The centre-left is in trouble.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Witches are fine; it's the racist thugs that make up the these far right parties that need burning, at least metaphorically.

Is a racist thug worse than a culturally inclusive thug? There are as many intolerant thugs on the left as on the right as evidenced by the antics of the AFL.

Are we still working on the assumption that all skinheads are racists?