MIT report: collapse by 2030

[stumuzz]

No, but that's a strawman. The fact that I happen to own a nature reserve has little to do with the price of fish.

Classic bifferism!!

[woodburner]

+1

[UndercoverElephant]

No, but that's a strawman. The fact that I happen to own a nature reserve has little to do with the price of fish.

It's anything but a strawman, Biff. You can't "degrow" unless you either can afford enough land to scratch a living off, or you've simply given up on your own future security, as I have.

[biffvernon]

Oh come off it folks. By degrow I mean, in the Mobbsey sense, that we can, indeed must, reduce the amount of fossil carbon we burn. If everyone reduces their carbon footprint to my level, which is entirely possible and compatible with a happy existence, that would be a good thing.

And after that we could do a lot more, but degrowing to my level would be a jolly good start.

If you are a peakist you know this is inevitable. I happen to think it's better to do it voluntarily in a way that we chose, rather than the alternative which is to have it forced upon us. You either design the transition or have it thrust upon you.

[mobbsey]

The presentation from Dennis Meadows (5 of 12), is excellent. A must watch.

I've ripped all the vids from YouTube -- when I get a moment I might turn them into a DVD.

[UndercoverElephant]

Oh come off it folks. By degrow I mean, in the Mobbsey sense, that we can, indeed must, reduce the amount of fossil carbon we burn. If everyone reduces their carbon footprint to my level, which is entirely possible and compatible with a happy existence, that would be a good thing.

I'd love to be in your position, Biff. But like most of the population of this country, I just don't have the money.

It's going to come down to land reform. If it doesn't, there is going to be some sort of revolution, or an authoritarian state.

If you are a peakist you know this is inevitable. I happen to think it's better to do it voluntarily in a way that we chose, rather than the alternative which is to have it forced upon us. You either design the transition or have it thrust upon you.

Yes, but you do not appear to understand the realities of urban life in the UK. Spend a year living in South London and you may see things differently.

In order to make the sort of transition you are hoping for, we'd need to get rid of about half the current population and distribute the newly-available land to the poorest half of those that remain.

[SleeperService]

Oh come off it folks. By degrow I mean, in the Mobbsey sense, that we can, indeed must, reduce the amount of fossil carbon we burn. If everyone reduces their carbon footprint to my level, which is entirely possible and compatible with a happy existence, that would be a good thing.

I'd love to be in your position, Biff. But like most of the population of this country, I just don't have the money.

It's going to come down to land reform. If it doesn't, there is going to be some sort of revolution, or an authoritarian state.

If you are a peakist you know this is inevitable. I happen to think it's better to do it voluntarily in a way that we chose, rather than the alternative which is to have it forced upon us. You either design the transition or have it thrust upon you.

Yes, but you do not appear to understand the realities of urban life in the UK. Spend a year living in South London and you may see things differently.

In order to make the sort of transition you are hoping for, we'd need to get rid of about half the current population and distribute the newly-available land to the poorest half of those that remain.

Quite agree but we don't have to get rid of them all tomorrow. Short term, instant fixes are a big part of the problem.

Having lived in the country and cities I've noticed that people in both enviroments want to live in the other. Fundamentally they aren't happy with their life and see moving as the only way out. Most are overwhelmed by the realities of changing so you'd need to keep it limited to a couple of things at a time. As they get used to change you'd be able to speed up but I'd still think keeping the 'campaigns' to 2 or 3 at a time would be best.

[biffvernon]

UE, I'm not some rich landowner! I was born and brought up in South London but by 1979 I had a very good understanding of the realities of urban life and decided it was not good for me. I moved to Lincolnshire and bought a field rather than spending my money on the stuff the most folk do. And to pay off the mortgage I worked pretty hard for 25 years at a job that was mostly boring. So yes, now I'm in a position that you might like to be in. I'm able to live comfortably with an income that is less than half the national average wage and it's lucky that I have little desire for foreign holidays, flashy cars or even an i-phone!

Land reform? Yes, there's plenty of scope but take care. The biggest farmer in my area is the Co-op! They have their own private ban on neonicotinoids.

The transition I'm hoping for will not require getting rid of half the population. I'd descibe that as genocide rather than transition. Our green and pleasant land is perfectly capable of supporting all the population and some, if we chose to do things a little bit differently. I look round and see rollilng acres of feed wheat, feed barly, oil-seed rape and horse paddocks. Not much of Lincolnshire's best land is being used to grow direct human food .

[UndercoverElephant]

Our green and pleasant land is perfectly capable of supporting all the population and some, if we chose to do things a little bit differently.

Maybe, but I'm still not convinced you are fully aware of what this entails.

[nexus]

I moved to Lincolnshire and bought a field rather than spending my money on the stuff the most folk do. And to pay off the mortgage I worked pretty hard for 25 years at a job that was mostly boring. So yes, now I'm in a position that you might like to be in. I'm able to live comfortably with an income that is less than half the national average wage and it's lucky that I have little desire for foreign holidays, flashy cars or even an i-phone!

That's great and I applaud your foresight and hard work. I think what UE may be referring to is the fact that due to the ridiculous increase in house and land prices even someone with a relatively 'good' job will now struggle to buy a decent sized property, especially with land. What has happened to house prices has disenfranchised generations.

Plus in order to get the 'decent' job people are now saddled with £27k of debt before they even start work.

I've worked extensively in disadvantaged communities and unbeknownst to them, most are leading green lives- no cars, high density housing, no flights and a high level of informal recycling.

[Little John]

Oh come off it folks. By degrow I mean, in the Mobbsey sense, that we can, indeed must, reduce the amount of fossil carbon we burn. If everyone reduces their carbon footprint to my level, which is entirely possible and compatible with a happy existence, that would be a good thing.

I'd love to be in your position, Biff. But like most of the population of this country, I just don't have the money.

It's going to come down to land reform. If it doesn't, there is going to be some sort of revolution, or an authoritarian state.

If you are a peakist you know this is inevitable. I happen to think it's better to do it voluntarily in a way that we chose, rather than the alternative which is to have it forced upon us. You either design the transition or have it thrust upon you.

Yes, but you do not appear to understand the realities of urban life in the UK. Spend a year living in South London and you may see things differently.

In order to make the sort of transition you are hoping for, we'd need to get rid of about half the current population and distribute the newly-available land to the poorest half of those that remain.

Totally agree UE

[biffvernon]

I applaud your foresight ... the ridiculous increase in house and land prices

Well, don't applaud too loudly. If I had stayed in London an extra 30 years and then moved to Lincolnshire I would now be a millionaire with a sizeable estate.

But I wouldn't have had half the fun on the way.

[biffvernon]

Yes, but you do not appear to understand the realities of urban life in the UK. Spend a year living in South London and you may see things differently.

In order to make the sort of transition you are hoping for, we'd need to get rid of about half the current population and distribute the newly-available land to the poorest half of those that remain.

Totally agree UE

What exactly do you totally agree with? That I don't understand the realities of urban life? The last 14 years of my teaching career was in a school whose catchment included England's most socially deprived ward, around what was once Grimsby's fish dock. Don't try to teach me about urban life.

Or is it the need to get rid of half the population? Are you genocidal or just plain bonkers?

We have to make the transition to the post peak oil world with the population we have. Might not be easy but there is no other option.

[hodson2k9]

We have to make the transition to the post peak oil world with the population we have. Might not be easy but there is no other option.

Yes, i fully agree biff.

Its obviously going to be difficult, it might not even be possible, but it is what it is. As i keep saying wer'e all in this together.

[Little John]

We have to make the transition to the post peak oil world with the population we have. Might not be easy but there is no other option.

Yes, i fully agree biff.

Its obviously going to be difficult, it might not even be possible, but it is what it is. As i keep saying wer'e all in this together.

No we're not.

We should be.

But we're not.