So what do you think of Respect?

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 01 Apr 2012, 07:01

Ludwig wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Ludwig wrote:I have reservations about Galloway's judgment, stability and integrity. Does no one remember the crawling speech he made to Saddam Hussein?
That was a two-finger salute to the political establishment.

Was it? Sounded to me like a crawling speech to a murderous dictator. I applaud his opposition to the war, but did he have to stoop quite so low?

I'd have thought his appearance on Big Brother was even lower.

TV for the hard of thinking.

SleeperService · Post by **SleeperService** » 01 Apr 2012, 22:44

Round here we've changed between Labour and Tory pretty frequently. If the coalition just put up one candidate they may just get re-elected if not it is absolutely wide open. One thing this week has managed is to get some people thinking. Trouble is it is extreme politics. Another three years like this and I'd say even the EDL would be contenders

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 02 Apr 2012, 08:06

SleeperService wrote:If the coalition just put up one candidate they may just get re-elected

You mean the BAU coalition of Tory/Labour/Liberal/Respect?

Where's the Party that's saying the party's over?

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 02 Apr 2012, 08:20

The political problem is that the logical conclusion of peak oil is austerity (specifically less consumption of fossil fuels and hence less growth or even recession).

This is not recognised by the Green Party.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 02 Apr 2012, 08:27

I didn't actually have in mind the Green Party when I wrote that.

You are right, John; they are also not saying that the party's over, at least not very loudly.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 02 Apr 2012, 08:47

johnhemming wrote:The political problem is that the logical conclusion of peak oil is austerity (specifically less consumption of fossil fuels and hence less growth or even recession).

This is not recognised by the Green Party.

Hi John,

I'd take issue with the way you're presenting this.

http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ec

EC201

To this end, the Citizens' Income (see EC730) will allow the current dependence on economic growth to cease, and allow zero or negative growth to be feasible without individual hardship should this be necessary on the grounds of sustainability. (see PB104-106)

The Green Party do not talk about "less growth and maybe even recession." They quite explicitly aim for zero or negative growth, because the laws of physics will eventually demand this. In other words, your response does not appear to take into account the fact that any ecologically-sound policy has to be based on the notion that the era of long-term, sustainable economic growth is over. You are still supporting the irrational assumption that growth can go on forever (and it couldn't do so for much longer even if we weren't staring down the barrel of peak oil - we'd just run into another bottleneck pretty soon, probably depletion of other minerals, or eventually serious climate change.)

I contend that the Green Party's position on this is more coherent and science-oriented than that of the Liberal Democrats.

SleeperService · Post by **SleeperService** » 02 Apr 2012, 11:40

biffvernon wrote:
SleeperService wrote:If the coalition just put up one candidate they may just get re-elected
You mean the BAU coalition of Tory/Labour/Liberal/Respect?

Where's the Party that's saying the party's over?

I was thinking of the current Lib Con mob but BAU covers it as well. I don't think the Great British Public will be ready for an alternative to BAU by 2015 even though it will be clear that we need exactly that. But I haven't got high confidence in that statement. The election after that will definately be in the Post BAU Era IMHO.

A great deal of the problem is finding out about alternative ways of living and the information to make an informed decision for the individual/community concerned.

Peak Oil Party's Over Party anybody?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 02 Apr 2012, 11:56

POPOP

Hmm... that name will take a bit of explaining. Think I'll keep my Green Party membership going for now.

Yes, UE, you are absolutely right to point out to John Hemming, MP (LibDem), that the Green Party is not part of the BAU herd, whereas Respect is. I've a deal of respect for Respect but at their roots they are still wedded to the standard economic growth paradigm, just from the left wing perspective that got rather lost in the Blair years.

John's contribution to the peak oil discussion and his support for TEQs have been invaluable but there is always going to be the tension between doing enough of the wrong stuff to become electable and doing only the right stuff and remaining unelectable.

The Green Party got one member elected without shouting too loudly about the direction their policies must lead.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 02 Apr 2012, 12:51

biffvernon wrote: The Green Party got one member elected without shouting too loudly about the direction their policies must lead.

True, and I've already said in this thread that I hope more of the same will happen. But speaking as somebody who lives in the constituency to which you refer, it is not very representative of the UK in general, nor of any other Westminster seat I can think of.

What we are waiting for is a political counter-culture revolution to occur, and Brighton just happens to be a place where "counter-culture" is normal. In these parts of Brighton, it is the normal people who look out of place.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 02 Apr 2012, 13:03

biffvernon wrote:The Green Party got one member elected without shouting too loudly about the direction their policies must lead.

And if they'd shouted louder about that direction, they'd have none elected.

A number of true, deep greens getting into government should be a welcome development.

As their currently-stated policies would be utterly incompatible with any other existing party, a coalition cannot work. They'd either be co-opted or simply not in (same thing, really).

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 02 Apr 2012, 14:02

The Greens don't talk often enough about how there could be low/zero "growth" without hardship. I would have thought the Citizens' Income would be a runaway vote-winner (think of all the bureaucracy it'd save!), but perhaps ppl who know politics are right and it isn't.

UE your comments about Brighton made me quite nostalgic for the time I lived there...

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 03 Apr 2012, 00:02

Probably worth looking at the slimness of that Green-swell in Brighton.

2010 Election

Conservative: 12275 (23.68%)
Labour: 14986 (28.91%)
Liberal Democrat: 7159 (13.81%)
UKIP: 948 (1.83%)
Green: 16238 (31.33%)
Socialist Labour: 148 (0.29%)
Others: 80 (0.15%)

Majority: 1252 (2.42%)

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 03 Apr 2012, 07:48

Lucas's majority could go up as disillusion with the others grows and the Brighton electorate see what a hard-working constituency MP they have. She could build a personal vote, never mind the party.

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 03 Apr 2012, 08:19

Cartoon courtesy of The Independent - 03/04/12.

What the Labour party needs is a new millibrand.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 03 Apr 2012, 10:21

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:Probably worth looking at the slimness of that Green-swell in Brighton.

2010 Election

Conservative: 12275 (23.68%)
Labour: 14986 (28.91%)
Liberal Democrat: 7159 (13.81%)
UKIP: 948 (1.83%)
Green: 16238 (31.33%)
Socialist Labour: 148 (0.29%)
Others: 80 (0.15%)

Majority: 1252 (2.42%)

Wait till the next election. I predict that having shown they can win in Brighton Pavilion, the Greens will make this into a safe seat. A lot of people who would vote labour or libdem elsewhere will now vote green even if it is just to make sure they keep the tories out. This constituency has a rump of tory voters (it was once a safe tory seat) who consist of a small number of pensioners, very rich people and tory-voting parts of the gay community. But that rump has a "glass ceiling". There aren't many other people in the constituency who would seriously consider voting tory under any circumstances. The reason it has been close in recent years is that the remaining 75% of people who vote were unpredictably swinging about between labour, the libdems and greens. With the greens in charge of both the westminster seat and the council, that unpredictability is likely to turn into a green landslide.

I predict Caroline Lucas will hold Brighton Pavilion with a majority increased to at least 5000 and maybe 10,000. Nearly all of the people who voted libdem at the last election will switch to the greens, and this will end up squeezing the labour vote (people will abandon labour because they think they can't win.) Labour won this seat three times under Blair/Brown, but it was never natural labour territory. The core labour vote is restricted to a few pockets of council housing. Most of the permanent, voting population consists of students and weirdos.