Something disruptive may be happening

Is nuclear fission going to make a comeback and plug the gap in our energy needs? Will nuclear fusion ever become energetically viable?

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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

stevecook172001 wrote:Do you really think that if cold fusion (or hot fusion) were possible, given that our economies are currently falling apart across the globe due to, fundamentally, the rising cost of energy, that these exotic energy production technologies would not have been used already?

Now, don’t misunderstand me, human organisations are more than capable of suppressing information if they think it goes against their interests (See Michelangelo for details). However, it is not in Western governments’ interests to suppress viable technology for producing energy.
Perhaps that is why there are now tentative noises from TPTB about these technologies that in the past they've ridiculed? (Viz. NASA's recent announcement about cold fusion).

Of course, it may also be a feeble attempt to avert panic in the stock market. Only time will tell.

On the other hand... I've read suggestions in "speculative" literature, that the technology that they have their hands on is pretty simple to implement once you know the principles. The last thing the energy corps want is people producing free energy in their sheds.

I don't know, maybe it's rubbish.
Nor is it anywhere as easy to suppress such information for any significant length of time now with modern telecommunication as compared to centuries past.
No, you are right, and here we are discussing it.

But don't underestimate the resources put into disinformation, or the power of groupthink. After all, despite the Internet, the apparently dishonest claims by MIT about replication of cold fusion experiments were believed by all right-thinking scientists.

Shouting "bad science" plays on the intellectual insecurity of those keen to parade their scientific literacy, and ensures that truly independent thinkers get drowned out.
The fact is, we humans love a simple narrative. It's why we have religion and other ideologies. It's also why it is equally tempting to construct a narrative that implies the world is run along intelligent lines (even if only for the benefit of a few).

Unfortunately, though, for the most part the world is not a run by genius Machiavellians for the benefit of a few. It's run by idiotic psychopaths for the benefit of a few.
What makes you so sure? The available narratives are far from simple, and throw up many unanswered and indeed unanswerable questions.

But the statement "Everything is chaotic" is the simplest narrative of all.
Which goes a long way to explaining why things tend to f*ck-up on a fairly regular basis
That can equally well be explained by the fact that they don't care about us. Look at who survives or profits from the f***-ups, and they start to look a little less like f***-ups. Read "The Shock Doctrine" if you don't believe me.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Post by hodson2k9 »

So i listened to parts of the CERN presentation (was unable to watch, so missed the slides) now i missed quite alot of what was said especially what dr srivastava said, but i did catch a couple of interesting points from Italian physicist Francesco
Celani they are:

Celini cataloged many experiments that he and many others have conducted (including one at NASA in 1989) which he states in many cases confirmed the Pons and Fleischmann effect.

He also told that mitsubishi, toyota, the japanese government and the japanese emperor have all started funding LENR research.

Now there was alot more information said but as i said i could only listen so i missed the slides and although celini spoke well he does have a heavy italian accent. Im sure there will be a thorough report on what was said soon and when it does i will post it up. In the meantime they have just made the slides and other information from the presentation available to download im not sure whats on them as i havent had time to look yet


http://indico.cern.ch/materialDisplay.p ... fId=177379
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
---Ben Bernake (2011)
hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

hodson2k9 wrote:So i listened to parts of the CERN presentation (was unable to watch, so missed the slides) now i missed quite alot of what was said especially what dr srivastava said, but i did catch a couple of interesting points from Italian physicist Francesco
Celani they are:

Celini cataloged many experiments that he and many others have conducted (including one at NASA in 1989) which he states in many cases confirmed the Pons and Fleischmann effect.

He also told that mitsubishi, toyota, the japanese government and the japanese emperor have all started funding LENR research.

Now there was alot more information said but as i said i could only listen so i missed the slides and although celini spoke well he does have a heavy italian accent. Im sure there will be a thorough report on what was said soon and when it does i will post it up. In the meantime they have just made the slides and other information from the presentation available to download im not sure whats on them as i havent had time to look yet


http://indico.cern.ch/materialDisplay.p ... fId=177379
For anyone who still doubts that LENR is a real phenomenon i urge you to look at them slides. Not even i realised how many different groups had done experiments showing LENR. There is no doubt what so ever that LENR is real, the only thing left is how to optimize and upscale it for energy production. IMO the only thing that can stop a new energy revolution now is running out of time due to PO. I now have no doubt that if the truth was told in 1989, it would already be upon us.
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
---Ben Bernake (2011)
SleeperService
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Post by SleeperService »

hodson2k9 wrote:So i listened to parts of the CERN presentation (was unable to watch, so missed the slides) now i missed quite alot of what was said especially what dr srivastava said, but i did catch a couple of interesting points from Italian physicist Francesco
Celani they are:

Celini cataloged many experiments that he and many others have conducted (including one at NASA in 1989) which he states in many cases confirmed the Pons and Fleischmann effect.

He also told that mitsubishi, toyota, the japanese government and the japanese emperor have all started funding LENR research.

Now there was alot more information said but as i said i could only listen so i missed the slides and although celini spoke well he does have a heavy italian accent. Im sure there will be a thorough report on what was said soon and when it does i will post it up. In the meantime they have just made the slides and other information from the presentation available to download im not sure whats on them as i havent had time to look yet


http://indico.cern.ch/materialDisplay.p ... fId=177379
Hmmm :?

Cold fusion?LENR well there seems to be something going on there hence industrial interest. However I'd bet everything I own that it ISN'T a 'nuclear' reaction of any kind, much more likely to be a chemical reaction of some sort. FFS if it can happen in a beaker what about all the other water bodies?

We have a great fusion reactor which generates no waste a nice safe 8 light minutes away. Put the fusion money hot or cold into PV etc and our energy needs WOULD be sorted PDQ.
Scarcity is the new black
hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

SleeperService wrote:
hodson2k9 wrote:So i listened to parts of the CERN presentation (was unable to watch, so missed the slides) now i missed quite alot of what was said especially what dr srivastava said, but i did catch a couple of interesting points from Italian physicist Francesco
Celani they are:

Celini cataloged many experiments that he and many others have conducted (including one at NASA in 1989) which he states in many cases confirmed the Pons and Fleischmann effect.

He also told that mitsubishi, toyota, the japanese government and the japanese emperor have all started funding LENR research.

Now there was alot more information said but as i said i could only listen so i missed the slides and although celini spoke well he does have a heavy italian accent. Im sure there will be a thorough report on what was said soon and when it does i will post it up. In the meantime they have just made the slides and other information from the presentation available to download im not sure whats on them as i havent had time to look yet


http://indico.cern.ch/materialDisplay.p ... fId=177379
Hmmm :?

Cold fusion?LENR well there seems to be something going on there hence industrial interest. However I'd bet everything I own that it ISN'T a 'nuclear' reaction of any kind, much more likely to be a chemical reaction of some sort. FFS if it can happen in a beaker what about all the other water bodies?

We have a great fusion reactor which generates no waste a nice safe 8 light minutes away. Put the fusion money hot or cold into PV etc and our energy needs WOULD be sorted PDQ.
Looks like your be left with out any possessions then :wink:. There are numerous different theories for what is happening but it is definately not a chemical reaction. Here is a few major highlights according to NASA: http://mnispel.net/neengineer/?p=320.
LENR is a form of nuclear power. However, LENR is NOT cold fusion”

LENR reactions are somewhere between 4,000 and 8,000,000 more energy dense than typical chemical reactions – that is, much less fuel required per energy generated compared to oil, coal, natural gas, etc..

“Total replacement of fossil fuels” (at least for NASA uses [mdn])

“A cheap, abundant, clean, scalable, portable source of energy will impact EVERYONE” (emphasis in original)

“Singular solution to peak oil, climate change, fresh water, and associated geopolitical instabilities”

“Enables widely distributed generation. Homes and businesses generate what they need – on site”

Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than Chemical, Transmutations (of elements), Minimal radiation”

The 2 decades of experiments and the weak interaction theories have removed the existential risk (that is, NASA is convinced it is real), what is remaining is to ENGINEER for improved performance.”

“The first step (for NASA) is to complete basic testing of this technology … This should be completed by early 2012 if not sooner if testing can start in the near future. This effort will be a collaborative effort between Glenn Research Center, Langley Research Center, Marshall Space Flight Center.”

“In short, LENR, depending upon the TBD performance, appears capable of Revolutionizing Aerospace across the board. No other single technology even comes close to the potential impacts of LENR upon Agency Missions.”
NASA and CERN believe LENR to be the wisdom larsen theory. the wisdom larsen theory is the only theory currently available that doesn't require "new physics".

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/05/nasa-c ... heory.html

I don't know much of what you are on about but LENR has the ability to replace every single use of fossil fuels from transportation to electricity generation. It would also make space travel so much easier, cheaper and faster. Just imagine having a car that doesn't need refuelling for 6 months.
Last edited by hodson2k9 on 23 Mar 2012, 11:52, edited 2 times in total.
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hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

SleeperService wrote:
hodson2k9 wrote:So i listened to parts of the CERN presentation (was unable to watch, so missed the slides) now i missed quite alot of what was said especially what dr srivastava said, but i did catch a couple of interesting points from Italian physicist Francesco
Celani they are:

Celini cataloged many experiments that he and many others have conducted (including one at NASA in 1989) which he states in many cases confirmed the Pons and Fleischmann effect.

He also told that mitsubishi, toyota, the japanese government and the japanese emperor have all started funding LENR research.

Now there was alot more information said but as i said i could only listen so i missed the slides and although celini spoke well he does have a heavy italian accent. Im sure there will be a thorough report on what was said soon and when it does i will post it up. In the meantime they have just made the slides and other information from the presentation available to download im not sure whats on them as i havent had time to look yet


http://indico.cern.ch/materialDisplay.p ... fId=177379
Hmmm :?

Cold fusion?LENR well there seems to be something going on there hence industrial interest. However I'd bet everything I own that it ISN'T a 'nuclear' reaction of any kind, much more likely to be a chemical reaction of some sort. FFS if it can happen in a beaker what about all the other water bodies?

We have a great fusion reactor which generates no waste a nice safe 8 light minutes away. Put the fusion money hot or cold into PV etc and our energy needs WOULD be sorted PDQ.
I get you now your on about the sun :lol:. Well yes maybe but doesnt really solve our transportation problem. Dont get me wrong im all for solar power but IF we can scale up LENR then it will blow any other form of energy out the water. No other current form of energy comes close to the potential possibilities LENR would bring.
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
---Ben Bernake (2011)
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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

Can't help but wonder if there's any connection to electrogravitics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrogravitics. This was a hot topic in the 1950s, and the military admitted to working on it, but things went quiet subsequently (perhaps they got it working? :) ).

It is an interesting subject because it links gravity to the other fundamental forces. It proposes that gravity is an electromagnetic phenomenon rather than being directly related to mass.

This flies in the face of Einsteinian physics - but so what? There are numerous problems with Einstein's ideas which have never been resolved (quantum entanglement, integration of gravity and quantum mechanics, "why" gravity bends space, faster-than-light travel by some particles, variablity of the gravitational "constant").

From what I understand, electrogravitics allows for self-perpetuating gravitaional fields, hence, essentially, "free" motion once something has been accelerated. It seems counterintuitive, as defies both the First and the Second Law of Thermodynamics... but what if we were to throw away our assumption that the history of the universe is simply one of entropy and slow death; what if there is, indeed, some spontaneous ordering (= "energy-creating") principle at work in tandem with entropy (= "energy destroying" because if energy is defined as the ability to do work, heat death effectively means the destruction of energy).
Last edited by Ludwig on 23 Mar 2012, 15:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by hodson2k9 »

Dont suppose a moderator could link the LENR part of this thread (mainly the information from CERN) with this www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20000 ? That way all LENR/cold fusion information can be seen in one place.
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hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

For people interested CERN has now posted the video of yesterdays lecture by Drs. Srivastava and Celani:

Dr celani
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1433866

Dr Srivastava
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1433865
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SleeperService
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Post by SleeperService »

Ah Ha!! I bet that it isn't a nuclear reaction and speculated about the chemical bit. Mind you looking at some of the junk still to be sorted I might make you take it anyway :D

I'll believe it when I see it as I'm getting rather cynical in my old age. But I've heard all these claims before, nuclear fusion power was going be be so cheap that electricity wouldn't be metered for example.

Just read Chris Goodall's 'Ten Technologies to save the planet' and I am a convert to the ability of indirect fusion (solar power) to deal with our needs combined with a different way of living.

I hope this research isn't another false silver bullet but we must accept that it could be a dead end. Remember that 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof'. I'd love it to work out though space propulsion with specific impulses in the thousands would transform space exploration and development. I may live to see humans on Mars yet 8)

As a parallel I'd suggest a look at carbon nanotubes or room temperature super conductors which are proving rather more work to scale up than anybody dreamed. This is despite a huge and eager market already waiting for them with no vested interests who may be threatened by their appearence.
Scarcity is the new black
hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

SleeperService wrote: I hope this research isn't another false silver bullet but we must accept that it could be a dead end.
Absolutely agree mate, there's a long way from research/testing stage and commercialisation. Its going to be interesting to see how it all pans out.
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woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

SleeperService wrote:I'll believe it when I see it as I'm getting rather cynical in my old age. But I've heard all these claims before, nuclear fusion power was going be be so cheap that electricity wouldn't be metered for example.
We don't know since we haven't got any fusion power yet. I suspect it might be old age setting in and you meant "fission " power instead. At the time the reports didn't differentiate between the two, and just referred to "nuclear power".
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Post by woodburner »

hodson2k9 wrote:I don't know much of what you are on about but LENR has the ability to replace every single use of fossil fuels from transportation to electricity generation. It would also make space travel so much easier, cheaper and faster. Just imagine having a car that doesn't need refuelling for 6 months.
How is it going to power aircraft? Where are you going to get all the materials to build the electric motors used in road vehicles? Having the ability of replacing every single use, is not the same as replacing all use.
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Post by hodson2k9 »

woodburner wrote:
hodson2k9 wrote:I don't know much of what you are on about but LENR has the ability to replace every single use of fossil fuels from transportation to electricity generation. It would also make space travel so much easier, cheaper and faster. Just imagine having a car that doesn't need refuelling for 6 months.
How is it going to power aircraft? Where are you going to get all the materials to build the electric motors used in road vehicles? Having the ability of replacing every single use, is not the same as replacing all use.
Woodburner, i really couldn't tell you, im no scientist, your have to ask NASA that one :D. From what i have read i think there are a few different ways. A steam engine can also be used instead of an electric engine. Found this not much i know but all i could really find.

http://www.slashgear.com/nuclear-powere ... -25190555/.

http://rossifocardifusion.com/e-cat-powered-sport-cars
Last edited by hodson2k9 on 24 Mar 2012, 08:49, edited 1 time in total.
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
---Ben Bernake (2011)
hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

woodburner wrote:
hodson2k9 wrote:I don't know much of what you are on about but LENR has the ability to replace every single use of fossil fuels from transportation to electricity generation. It would also make space travel so much easier, cheaper and faster. Just imagine having a car that doesn't need refuelling for 6 months.
How is it going to power aircraft? Where are you going to get all the materials to build the electric motors used in road vehicles? Having the ability of replacing every single use, is not the same as replacing all use.
Just like to add i didn't make up the following statement "LENR has the ability to replace every single use of fossil fuels from transportation to electricity generation" NASA clearly states on the video they posted that LENR will power ALL our transportation and infrastructure needs the video can be seen here for people who haven't seen it http://technologygateway.nasa.gov/media ... /lenr.html
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
---Ben Bernake (2011)
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