Greece Watch...

[biffvernon]

The Icelandic way: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-2 ... story.html

[Ludwig]

The Icelandic way: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-2 ... story.html

Mumble mumble... Russian loans... mumble.

[kenneal - lagger]

Apart from a few millionaires I had the impression Greece was a relatively poor nation. They joined the EU, got lots of bungs, lived the high live, now reality is catching them. Life can be cruel but that's the way of it.

Before joining the EU Greece was a rich nation. They had a benign climate, a beautiful, if rugged, country, they produced most of their own food on land most of them owned, living in houses most of them owned, they had close family ties and lived in small communities and the cost of living was low. They might not have had much money but when you've got all that who needs much money.

Then they joined the EU and the rat race. Perhaps I am painting an over glossy picture of Greek life pre EU but there are other things than money. Just look at the number of people on PS who just want their own bit of land and somewhere unassuming to live on or near the land.

[woodpecker]

[He's looking back from the present] "... Kolokotronis, Ioannis Makriyiannis and other fighters of 1821 would have recognized a country that is continually bankrupt or on the verge of default (it defaulted in 1826, 1843, 1860 and 1893), in which institutions are weak and citizens depend on the will of the mighty, laws are applied selectively, and selfishness and lawlessness reign. Here, reformers are either murdered (as was independent Greece’s first governor, Ioannis Capodistrias) or pushed aside, and the education system is in a perpetual state of collapse. We are in constant need of foreign loans and intervention and yet at the same time we believe that we are unique in our virtues and the victims of those who envy us."

Except from comment piece by Nikos Konstandaras
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 011_384716

I'd say there are many parallels with Spain: sclerotic and expensive bureaucracy, plenty of fraud, corruption, huge black economy... Yes, Greece has been rich in relative terms in recent years compared to the rest of the world, but in European terms it suffers many of the same problems as its neighbours in southern Europe.

[emordnilap]

The Icelandic way: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-2 ... story.html

According to Christensen at Danske Bank, “the bottom line is that if households are insolvent, then the banks just have to go along with it, regardless of the interests of the banks.”

A spark of realism, although a tad unfair to those not in debt.

[kenneal - lagger]

The Icelandic way: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-2 ... story.html

According to Christensen at Danske Bank, “the bottom line is that if households are insolvent, then the banks just have to go along with it, regardless of the interests of the banks.”

A spark of realism, although a tad unfair to those not in debt.

Don't show that to UE. he will be livid.

[emordnilap]

The Icelandic way: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-2 ... story.html

According to Christensen at Danske Bank, “the bottom line is that if households are insolvent, then the banks just have to go along with it, regardless of the interests of the banks.”

A spark of realism, although a tad unfair to those not in debt.

Don't show that to UE. he will be livid.

I did say a tad. I do believe we should try to bring equality to everyone, rich or poor.

[featherstick]

The Icelandic way: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-2 ... story.html

According to Christensen at Danske Bank, “the bottom line is that if households are insolvent, then the banks just have to go along with it, regardless of the interests of the banks.”

A spark of realism, although a tad unfair to those not in debt.

Yes, but also a small, homogeneous, highly related population where a predatory bank manager might only have to look back a few generations to find a common ancestor with the person he was bankrupting. It's not going to happen over here.

[kenneal - lagger]

It's not going to happen over here.

If we had widespread defaulting on mortgages the government wouldn't have much option but to allow some sort of debt forgiveness, even if it was converting mortgage payments to a smaller rental agreement. Larger numbers of homeless families would be politically unacceptable here. It wouldn't be like the US with families living in tent cities on a huge scale while reclaimed houses were siting empty.

[UndercoverElephant]

The Icelandic way: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-2 ... story.html

According to Christensen at Danske Bank, “the bottom line is that if households are insolvent, then the banks just have to go along with it, regardless of the interests of the banks.”

A spark of realism, although a tad unfair to those not in debt.

Don't show that to UE. he will be livid.

Iceland is a special case. When push comes to shove, Iceland is self-sufficient in both energy and food. They are one of the very few places in the world who could cut themselves off from everybody else, and survive relatively unscathed.

The big losers in the Icelandic situation are foreigners, especially foreign banks. If it was the mass of the population losing while irresponsible homeowners gain, the reaction would be different.

[Lord Beria3]

Greer has noted that countries that are struggling at the moment, in the twilight zone of the era of abundant industrialism - and the whole globalised neo-liberal financial capitalism is has brought about - may be the best positioned as we start entering the era of Scarcity Industrialism.

So, countries like Iceland and maybe soon Greece which are frozen out of the global bond markets and are forced to become self-sufficient - as much as possible - will in the long run be better off.

The same could be said of the UK.

Long term a collapse in the gilt markets would force the UK to become self-sufficient financially and resource wise. In the short term (e.g. the next five years or so) the pain would be BIG.

Without the bond markets we would have seriously shrink the State. We would have to get serious about food and energy security and so on.

Long term, we would be less dependent upon a increasingly fragile globalised system of trade which is going to collapse at some point.

[Lord Beria3]

http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2012/02 ... reece.html

Great article on this so called Greek deal.

[biffvernon]

None of the commentators on the Greek situation seems to have read Heinberg's End of Growth, so here's a bit:

From now on, only relative growth is possible: the global economy is playing a zero-sum game, with an ever-shrinking pot to be divided among the winners.

Greece is not currently among the winners.

[UndercoverElephant]

If the pot is shrinking, it is not even a zero-sum game.

[Aurora]

BBC News - 22/02/12

Greece has been downgraded by the ratings agency Fitch following the approval of its latest bailout deal.

The agency now classes Greek government debt as C, down from a CCC rating.

The downgrade was triggered by the deal between Greece and the banking industry, under which the banks will swap their existing bonds for new debt worth much less.

Fitch says the exchange, if completed, would constitute a "distressed debt exchange".

Original Article

Q. What's a Greek urn?
A. Absolutely nothing.