The grave danger of having too many kids...

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postie
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Post by postie »

Lord Beria3 wrote: Surely if have few resources, than having lots of children puts you at massive risk of not securing sufficient resources to feed them every year, running the risk of them starving to death.
To put it brutally, if that was the case, then, so what? Yeah, some kids die of preventable illness or hunger... but they're expendable in a crisis such as a famine. It's better to feed the adults and let the weak, the young, die as they tend to be the least productive with the least amount of "investment" and the longest time until they become contributors. The adults can, when things balance out, reproduce and replace lost offspring.
But the reality, on the whole, even in Africa now, is that extreme famine is a once in a generation thing... normally enough children can be brought up inbetween famines to ensure that the energy expended in bringing them will be "rewarded" by them providing labour, money and or social care to the parents.
The more children you have the better your own survival in general, both short and long term.

Rather than money, either the surplus or lack of it, being the cause for high or low birth rates, many studies seem to point towards education of women being far more important. Less education for women means less control over all aspects of their lives, including birth control. It's one of the reasons the Taliban denied access to education to women and why Afghanistan (and other largely illiterate countries) have high birth rates.
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hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

postie wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote: Surely if have few resources, than having lots of children puts you at massive risk of not securing sufficient resources to feed them every year, running the risk of them starving to death.
To put it brutally, if that was the case, then, so what? Yeah, some kids die of preventable illness or hunger... but they're expendable in a crisis such as a famine. It's better to feed the adults and let the weak, the young, die
Guessing you not got kids postie? If there was a choice then to me its a no brainer the people that helped cause this crisis (the adults, who helped consume/waste resources on utter crap) should be the 1st to starve end of, not the poor kids whos future has been stole away for bits of metal and plastic, i no for a fact i will do everything in my power to try help my kids or any other kids for that matter, if i saw stray kids id try help them, if i saw a stray 40 year old wouldnt even waste my energy, weather kids can help or not is not the point, they deserve help from the people who helped cause this mess its not there mess!!
ceti331
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Post by ceti331 »

Guessing you not got kids postie? If there was a choice then to me its a no brainer the people that helped cause this crisis (the adults, who helped consume/waste resources on utter crap) should be the 1st to starve end of, not the poor kids whos future has been stole away for bits of metal and plastic, i no for a fact i will do everything in my power to try help my kids or any other kids for that matter, if i saw stray kids id try help them, if i saw a stray 40 year old wouldnt even waste my energy, weather kids can help or not is not the point, they deserve help from the people who helped cause this mess its not there mess!!
they lack choice sure.

the overall problem we face IMO is malthusian, so, ultimately the only humane way to fix it is to produce dramatically fewer kids in the first place, then we get to die of old age.

also, i'm not sure how much of the consumption we can write off as crap. a lot of it is helping to make an overpopulated world tolerable. people needed TV's to keep their brains sane in decaying urban environments. they wanted cars because they liked to cocoon themselves from being surrounded by people they didn't want to be around . etc etc.
mobile phones becoming efficient portable computers could help reduce the amount of transport needed to achieve various tasks..(send your mind not your body) - these wouldn't have evolved without the consumerism
"The stone age didn't end for a lack of stones"... correct, we'll be right back there.
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Postie - you are right but on a personal note I could not live with the knowledge that some of my own children had starved to death.

I would probably have a depression and kill myself.

You put it in frank terms but the reality would be horrific.
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postie
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Post by postie »

hodson2k9 wrote:
Guessing you not got kids postie? If there was a choice then to me its a no brainer the people that helped cause this crisis (the adults, who helped consume/waste resources on utter crap) should be the 1st to starve end of, not the poor kids whos future has been stole away for bits of metal and plastic, i no for a fact i will do everything in my power to try help my kids or any other kids for that matter, if i saw stray kids id try help them, if i saw a stray 40 year old wouldnt even waste my energy, weather kids can help or not is not the point, they deserve help from the people who helped cause this mess its not there mess!!
I think you misunderstand me slightly. I'm not talking about this being a choice, or a decision, or even something we'd have any control over. In fact I'm not really even talking about us... but about historical or future famines that cut through society with savagery we can't comprehend.
You say it's a "no brainer" that people who helped cause the crisis should be the first to starve. OK then... say, hypothetically you're a subsistence farmer with a wife and 10 kids from teens down to a baby. You have barely enough food to feed everyone. Do you starve yourself to death so one of your kids survive? And if you do that - then who feeds the other 9 kids once you're dead? Because next year the rains return and if you'd have lived, you could have not only fed your own family but sold food to others who have kids.

Maybe Peak Oil will see famine or starvation in this land... that's a different debate. If it happens, and you have food for you and yours, do you go feeding every kid in the neighbourhood who looks a bit skinny? To the detriment of your own family?

And nope, I don't have kids. Am a step-dad though... so technically I'm feeding someone else's nippers. :)
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RenewableCandy
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Post by RenewableCandy »

Lord Beria3 wrote:Postie - you are right but on a personal note I could not live with the knowledge that some of my own children had starved to death.

I would probably have a depression and kill myself.

You put it in frank terms but the reality would be horrific.
There are ways round that even in the worst famines, they're not pretty but it can save a life if you (for instance, ancient China) marry daughters off very early so the in-laws get to feed them rather than the cost falling to you, or (Viking Britain) hire family members out as temporary "debt slaves" with a fixed term and certain rights which their legal system upheld, e.g. right not to get injured or pregnant.

Both of these rely on there being some households who are richer than others, but frankly I think that will always be the case.
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DominicJ
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Post by DominicJ »

Did anyone actualy read the link?
These kids arent going to their grannies or their aunties for a few months.
From cases of newborn babies wrapped in swaddling and dumped on the doorsteps of clinics, to children being offloaded on charities and put in foster care,
One toddler was left at the nursery she attended with a note that read: "I will not return to get Anna. I don't have any money, I can't bring her up. Sorry. Her mother."
For now, the state will take over, in a few years time, well, we've all heard the tales of children dumped at aid posts by their parents, or some sort of guardian, when the aid post runs out of food, the children starve, or perhaps some of the older ones are sold off to a local brothel, or the younger ones to a pedo network. Maybe the boys are sold to a local strong man.
Brazil once shot street kids on sight.
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