The grave danger of having too many kids...

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 28 Dec 2011, 19:14

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/de ... en-victims

Like the middle class, society's great connector, families are beginning to unravel under the weight of a crisis that, with no end in sight, is as much human as it is financial.

Tell-tale signs abound that in its quest to beat off bankruptcy, Greece is being hollowed out, a little more, with each passing day.

"People are going hungry, families are breaking up, instances are mounting of mothers and fathers no longer being able to bring up their own kids," said Ilias Ilioupolis, general secretary of the civil servants' union ADEDY. "Until now there has been a conspiracy of silence around the tragic effects of the austerity measures the IMF and EU are asking us to take."

All entitlment programmes will be dismantled in the coming decades. If you have children you better have a income and/or assets because otherwise this is coming to you.

If you are single, think very carefully before having children because you don't want to end up selling them to care because you can't afford to feed them.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Dec 2011, 19:34

It's a well known fact that poorer societies tend to have more children. They are not very expensive to feed and soon grow big enough to do useful work, contributing to household income and eventually caring for parents in their old age. In rich societies, where children are provided with the stuff of consumerism and then leave, they can have a negative impact on the household economy. It is therefore unsurprising that some people make the mistake of thinking that having children is necessarily unwise in a time of approaching austerity. They underestimate the changes ahead. After the Great Economic Climacteric of the Future we will not be in either of the situations described above. It is currently uncertain whether or not having children will be to one's economic advantage.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 28 Dec 2011, 20:03

Wrong Biff.

If you don't have a income (you lose your job and can't get anather one) I struggle to see how having children can possibily be a good thing.

And I look forward to seeing how many kids these days would happily become dirt-poor serfs living on the land.

Get real mate.

extractorfan · Post by **extractorfan** » 28 Dec 2011, 20:26

wrong lb3

Poor society's have families with lots of childeren because it is one way (often their only way) to invest in the future.

Families in rich societies have been falling apart for decades, men not supporting their kids, women being paid to have kids alone but not paid enough to provide for them in any meaningful way.

When childcare is not supported by the state, families come into their own.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 28 Dec 2011, 20:27

If that is the case, why are Greeks getting rid of their children?

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 28 Dec 2011, 20:32

What you also fail to factor in is that without sufficient inputs of energy, our industrialised agrilcutural system will collapse and there is no way we can feed a population of circa 70 million.

The reality is that if and when this happens, there will be a massive population crunch with millions dying.

Long term, when population has stablised it might make sense to have many children but that is at least a generation or two away.

extractorfan · Post by **extractorfan** » 28 Dec 2011, 20:37

the greeks are moving from an entitlement culture to a look out for you and yours culture, as we will.

Some families, strong families will survive. Maybe some will temporarily split to try to derive an income from different places.

We would all be royally f*cked if everyone stopped having children and families, and quite frankly, the sorts of people who understand about geological limits, and the link between energy inputs and the economy are the sorts of people who should definitely be having families. They are the most likely to survive.

Who you gonna trust more LB3? Your son, sister, father, mother, or the guy next door?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Dec 2011, 20:56

Lord Beria3 wrote:Wrong Biff.

A bit harsh. I'm pretty sure I'm right about the past, and what I said about the future was "It is currently uncertain whether or not having children will be to one's economic advantage."

Being certain about the future allows the possibility of being wrong but I'm backing it either way so avoid being wrong.

(BTW, the Greeks have not yet come close to the Great Economic Climacteric of the Future.)

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 28 Dec 2011, 22:54

I heard on a (BBC? Channel4?) documentary a couple of weeks ago that each child in care in the UK costs the state an average of £150 a day.

Which means that by adopting my two I have saved the state over one million pounds.

And they make me feel like a millionaire every day.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 28 Dec 2011, 23:30

hmmm I started work at 8 that was in a fairground in the uk cant remember how many hours I was doing but longer than most adults work in this country .
Then later I forged letters saying I'd left the country so the education people would stop annoying me and I stopped going to school and worked in the fairground and ran a mail order and antiques business, then went back to school when I was about 15 to do o'levels .

It all depends on how you bring up children and your attitudes, if you have the sort of attitudes that a lot of fairground or gypsy people have having a bunch of kids is to your advantage .

I'd love to have lots of children if brought up right and not spoiled they can be terrific.

Think of children like the young Audey Murphy or the kid in the old song patches, and then think of the spoiled children we have today in society its all how you bring them up.

I'd like to play like the other kids

well you can't you have family responsibility's life's tough

Thats a great thing to learn young, get rid of all that sense of entitlement most people seem to be cursed by

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvfsfS6N ... re=related

patches could be a song about Audey murphys childhood except his dad just run off so it was worse, hard times either make you or they break you

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 28 Dec 2011, 23:56

Lord Beria3 wrote:If that is the case, why are Greeks getting rid of their children?

The few Greeks I know would never get rid of their children. Life IS family.

Sure the kids may have to be raised by the grandparents for a while but it will stay within the family.

Just for perspective my mum was raised by her gran who was in turn raised by her gran and so on backwards. It was the way families worked.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 29 Dec 2011, 09:48

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:If that is the case, why are Greeks getting rid of their children?
The few Greeks I know would never get rid of their children. Life IS family.

Sure the kids may have to be raised by the grandparents for a while but it will stay within the family.

Just for perspective my mum was raised by her gran who was in turn raised by her gran and so on backwards. It was the way families worked.

Yeah, LB's statement sounds like nonsense, going by traditional Greek values. Still, anything's possible. But even I and my close relatives were brought up by family, not just parents. I shared in it for others and that's relatively recently. 'Getting rid' of children is something rich people do and have done.

Oxenstierna · Post by **Oxenstierna** » 29 Dec 2011, 10:58

For a nation where "life IS family" Greeks have one of the lowest birthrates in Europe. According to a recent article by Mark Steyn:

In Greece, 100 grandparents have 42 grandchildren — i.e., the family tree is upside down.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/ ... steyn?pg=1

This isn't to say that the birth rate *in* Greece is necessarily falling. In fact, maternity hospitals are being put under considerable pressure by a baby boom amongst immigrants:

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2011/12 ... oom-costs/

Keela · Post by **Keela** » 29 Dec 2011, 11:04

emordnilap wrote:'Getting rid' of children is something rich people do and have done.

? Sounds as unjustified as LB3's remark.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 29 Dec 2011, 11:40

Keela wrote:
emordnilap wrote:'Getting rid' of children is something rich people do and have done.
? Sounds as unjustified as LB3's remark.

Think day care; think hired help; think boarding schools; in times past, think governesses; think wet nurses; think aristocracy illegitimate children.