Rise of far right an ominous echo

[hodson2k9]

What plan?

All they've "pulled off" is ways of holding the thing together for a bit longer. I too am surprised at how effective this strategy has been at delaying the inevitable, but I don't see the inevitable getting any less inevitable.

what makes you think they want the present system to continue?

And before anyone says, yes i know theyve been printing money to keep the system alive, but to me that just means they aint ready to crash the system yet, TPTB are not thick they know that they cant rescue the current system which to me means they arent ready yet, as know one can tell me that they did not know what they was doing when setting up the current system, (see ludwigs sig) and the current system was set up, do some reesearch if you think the current debt system was a mistake

[Lord Beria3]

Whatever...

There is no single global TPTB - the worlds ruling elites won't cooperate to share an ever shrinking pool of fossil fuels, they will fight over the remains.

Read some solid marxism... capitalism is programmed to its transformation or destruction. There is no conspiritorial 'miracle' waitng to happen.

Greer warns precisely about this kind of thinking - that there is some kind of global elite ready to save us. Its a load of bollocks.

[hodson2k9]

that there is some kind of global elite ready to save us. Its a load of bollocks.

i cant remember saying anything about anyone saving us.

As for the rest of what you said, it doesnt take a global co-operation, who ever owns the worlds money supply, which is the federal reserve by the way (see how and who set up the fed), basically has the power to do as they please (runs the world), plus the current system(debt system) was not a mistake of capitalism, that merley sped up the process, the system based on debt was set up long before capitalism came about

[hodson2k9]

There is no conspiritorial 'miracle' waitng to happen.

If the kind of one world government (new world order) that ludwig is on about was to come about, it would be far from a miracle, it would be more catastrophic than anything.

[UndercoverElephant]

What plan?

All they've "pulled off" is ways of holding the thing together for a bit longer. I too am surprised at how effective this strategy has been at delaying the inevitable, but I don't see the inevitable getting any less inevitable.

what makes you think they want the present system to continue?

The politicians or the Evil Conspirators?

Doesn't matter - both depends on upon it.

what about what comes after the system fails though, is it not easier to set up a one world system when people are suffering in the mist of a catastrophic crisis?

No. It's much, much harder.

, i mean if people are starving and someone comes out and says, ive got a plan vote for me, there's a good chance people are going to vote for it

Only if they believe in the plan.

, didn't hitler come to power, after a crisis in germany, all im saying is when theres a crisis thats when vultures strike as thats when the people are at there weakest, and go with the flow in the hope of something better

This is not 1931.

I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know how this is actually going to reach "peak crisis" or what will happen next, although not for want of trying to understand it. And I'm pretty sure that nobody else knows what's going to happen either. I expect chaos, not the fulfilment of some conspiracy to take over the world. I think The Powers That Be are losing their grip on power.

[UndercoverElephant]

that there is some kind of global elite ready to save us. Its a load of bollocks.

i cant remember saying anything about anyone saving us.

As for the rest of what you said, it doesnt take a global co-operation, who ever owns the worlds money supply, which is the federal reserve by the way (see how and who set up the fed), basically has the power to do as they please (runs the world)

Not any more they don't. Every time they are forced to use that power they become less powerful. They can't keep a fiat money ponzi scheme going forever.

, plus the current system(debt system) was not a mistake of capitalism, that merley sped up the process, the system based on debt was set up long before capitalism came about

That depends on what precisely you mean by "capitalism."

[postie]

Read some solid marxism... capitalism is programmed to its transformation or destruction. There is no conspiritorial 'miracle' waitng to happen.

Greer warns precisely about this kind of thinking - that there is some kind of global elite ready to save us. Its a load of bollocks.

Wow! Except for the non capitalization of Marx ( time for a pun ... Marx needs Das Capital! ) that's the single most thing you've said that I agree with.
Capitalism, according to Marx, is destined to destroy itself. It can do no other. It can transform, true, but ultimately it has to sow its own seeds of destruction. I don't think he saw it as Peak Oil though... it was more through creating the conditions that ensured its destruction, that it needs an ever growing pool of labour, that those who are disenfranchised will seek to destroy it...
At that point we have a choice... Socialism or barbarism. It isn't set in stone either way.

[biffvernon]

This is a really good essay re Marx and our current situation:

http://monthlyreview.org/2011/12/01/cap ... atastrophe

[RenewableCandy]

Well I dunno...I've read quite a chunk (about 2/3, so not all) of Marx's Kapital and in those 2/3 there's no mention of natural resources (as in, capitalism's bad effects on) whatever. Also heard others say that wan't exactly his strong suit (or at least, not the strong suit of "Marxism", which might be a different matter). So I think people might be trying to make him out to be an eco-hero after-the-fact.

Certainly, the Soviet Union was an environmental disaster, but again, that's probably nowt to do with what Marx originally said...certainly the politics wan't (much).

[hodson2k9]

I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know how this is actually going to reach "peak crisis" or what will happen next, although not for want of trying to understand it. And I'm pretty sure that nobody else knows what's going to happen either. I expect chaos, not the fulfilment of some conspiracy to take over the world. I think The Powers That Be are losing their grip on power.

im not saying its true about the one world government, its a conspiracy theory, but i wouldnt rule nothing out being the truth, everythings possible imo, from a ruling conspiring elite to what you said, i wouldn't dismiss nothing out of hand.

[postie]

Well I dunno...I've read quite a chunk (about 2/3, so not all) of Marx's Kapital and in those 2/3 there's no mention of natural resources (as in, capitalism's bad effects on) whatever. Also heard others say that wan't exactly his strong suit (or at least, not the strong suit of "Marxism", which might be a different matter). So I think people might be trying to make him out to be an eco-hero after-the-fact.

Certainly, the Soviet Union was an environmental disaster, but again, that's probably nowt to do with what Marx originally said...certainly the politics wan't (much).

Maybe, though I couldn't quote it, Engels and his Manchester work would have touch on the environment. But yeah, like you say, it's after the event and people are trying to attach a label to it that didn't really exist at the time.

[biffvernon]

I think it was more Engels than Marx who was into the nature stuff.
From the John Bellamy Foster piece, quoting Engels

The people, who in Mesopotamia, Greece, Asia Minor and elsewhere, destroyed the forests to obtain cultivable land, never dreamed that by removing along with the forests the collecting centers and reservoirs of moisture that they were laying the basis for the present forlorn state of those countries. When the Italians of the Alps used up the pine forests on the southern slopes, so carefully cherished on the northern slopes, they had no inkling that by doing so they were cutting at the roots of the dairy industry of their region; they had still less inkling that they were thereby depriving their mountain springs of water for the greater part of the year and making it possible for them to pour still more furious torrents on the plains during the rainy seasons.

[Lord Beria3]

Some variant of capitalism (the basic village market place to buy and sell goods) will always be around us.

Whether our hyper-complex finance, globalised capitalism will survive is quite a different matter.

[RenewableCandy]

Some variant of capitalism (the basic village market place to buy and sell goods) will always be around us.

which is no bad thing if you ask me. But I don't think the "village market" is Capitalism: it's just Trade. Capitalism is more like the belief that to make money out of having money (or some other resource that counts as "Capital", such as a building), is the correct thing to do.

[vtsnowedin]

Some variant of capitalism (the basic village market place to buy and sell goods) will always be around us.

which is no bad thing if you ask me. But I don't think the "village market" is Capitalism: it's just Trade. Capitalism is more like the belief that to make money out of having money (or some other resource that counts as "Capital", such as a building), is the correct thing to do.

Look at the opposite. Should a person that has money or a building do nothing with it and lose money as the building deteriorates?