End of the Euro

[UndercoverElephant]

What do you think? A lover's tiff or an unreconcilable breakdown of the marriage?

I think it is exactly what Clegg is saying it is: Cameron didn't have much choice, because his own party would have turned on him if he'd done anything else.

[biffvernon]

I suppose the problem is that if the LibDems walk out and cause an election it is just possible that the great British xenophobic anti-foreigner get out of Europe electorate might give the Tories an overall majority.

In fact Cameron's best hope of a winning a majority might actually be now, before the worst of the cuts bite and before the Euro crashes bringing British manufacturing to a sudden stop and everyone blames him.

[Adam1]

One of the comment pieces in today's Observer makes the point that Cameron doesn't have sufficient emotional intelligence to forge trusting relationships with his counterparts amongst our neighbours. He is compared unfavourably with John Major who built a rapport with Kohl that helped to get him the various opt outs from Maastricht; not that I think it was good for Britain to get them - we should have been in with the Euro from the start. One benefit would have been that we could have argued more strongly for greater fiscal control. Also, there would have been less political pressure to accept the more marginal candidates for Euro membership, particularly Greece. We could have influenced events in a way that has been impossible on the outside. Now we have a mess on our doorstep that is costing us and, following Cameron's short-sighted decision on Thursday, we have virtually zero ability to influence the course of events, except destructively. Cameron has handed so much power to the euro-phobes here at home that, even if he had been willing/capable of it, he has given himself no room for a cleverer, more nuanced and emotionally intelligent response to this crisis. Instead, by saying everything - effectively even urgent measures to save the Euro - has to go to a referendum, he has limited his scope for action hugely. That was always the euro-phobes' intent of course - they want to impose a US-style neo-liberal settlement on the UK, and to do as much damage to Europe as possible. They forget that we are in Europe (whether we choose to believe it or not). By damaging Europe, we damage ourselves.

I'm sure i read somewhere that the EU was planning to take control of every european nation's natural resources. I.E the north sea oil, oil reserves, possible shale gas/falkland oil, renewables, food etc, would be controlled and owned at the European level. So Brussels will completely control the UK's energy policy and usuage. But i can't find where i read it.

The whole premise behind this is that the EU is a monster that is out to get us, rather than being an organisation (accepted, a far from perfect one) which we have (had?) the opportunity to be an influential member of. We gain sovereignty and control over our destiny (in as much as that is possible for any human agency) by being influential in a globally significant organisation. Isolationism doesn't make a country strong. I suspect that the medium to long term effect of this UKIP-inspired politics will be the break up of the United Kingdom - how ironic!

I think it is essential that the EU has a strong enough influence/control over energy policies in the member nations to minimise the risk of violent conflict over the coming years. Given Britain's hopeless record on formulating a reality-based energy policy, even if one is cynical about Europe's ability to formulate policy, I find it hard to see that they would make more of a hash of it than we have at a national level.

[biffvernon]

Indeed. A pan-European energy policy makes a good deal of sense and it's important that Britain (and Norway) are part of it.

I wonder if Cameron's action will spur Scotland towards independence? They have tended to be more pro-EU.

[RenewableCandy]

I'm sure i read somewhere that the EU was planning to take control of every european nation's natural resources. I.E the north sea oil, oil reserves, possible shale gas/falkland oil, renewables, food etc, would be controlled and owned at the European level. So Brussels will completely control the UK's energy policy and usuage. But i can't find where i read it.

That sounds bad, until you consider who controlls it at the moment: lots of private companies (none of whom are owned here) answerable to no-one and with no long-term strategy.

[Snail]

biffvernon:

I wonder if Cameron's action will spur Scotland towards independence? They have tended to be more pro-EU.

Definitetly this will push people to vote for independance. Scotland's history has alway been closely bound to europe. SNP and Scottish MEPs seem a lot more EU-savvy than their English counterparts too. A lot of people would rather be part of a european union rather than the london centred one we have now.

[DN65AF]

The whole premise behind this is that the EU is a monster that is out to get us, rather than being an organisation (accepted, a far from perfect one) which we have (had?) the opportunity to be an influential member of.

Well, I spent 25 years working in British manufacturing exporting industry. That's the bit you all want to succeed isn't it.

We exported all over the world: N & South America, Scandanavia, Japan, Middle East of various persuasions......
So where did we have no success.....yup central core Europe/EU.

There was always some excuse as to why our product did not comply with local regulations - you know the shade colour of the paint might be wrong. Whatever we changed to fix some alledged problem, well there were plently of new excuses to exclude us from the bidding process.
We used to put in silly low prices safe in the knowledge that there was no way of course they were going to give an order so we might as well just drive them mad.
We made formal complaints at group executive FTSE level to the relevant Gov & EU organisations - fat lot of good that did, there was simply no way that we were going to be allowed get an order into Europe....

In my hobby of flying and gliding it was much the same. New regulations imposed by EASA in the EU on our own CAA mean't the closure of clubs and the closure of maintenance facilities all due to the rising costs of complying with the new regulations.

Frankly after 25 years of putting up with this rubbish I just can't wait until the entire EU and the euro totally collapses and then they can all go and swirl around in the cesspit of their own making.

PS I'd be delighted if Scotland would declare independence and join them. If wasn't so long ago they were trumpeting the celtic arc of Scotland Ireland and Iceland brimming with opportunity and promise - don't hear so much about it now - can't think why.......

[UndercoverElephant]

Scottish Independence!!!!!

Oh yes, that's a funny one. All you have to do to defeat a Scottish Nationalist in a debate is ask him what currency an independent Scotland would use. Can't wait for Salmond's referendum.

[RenewableCandy]

what currency an independent Scotland would use...

The Haggis. Should work, as long as they don't start investing unfeasibly large amounts of it in central America...

[Aurora]

Will Hutton - The Guardian - 11/12/11

Cameron has made a crucial misjudgment, simply to appease the City and his own jingoistic rightwingers.

Article continues ...

And from The Independent .....

[Lord Beria3]

I suppose the problem is that if the LibDems walk out and cause an election it is just possible that the great British xenophobic anti-foreigner get out of Europe electorate might give the Tories an overall majority.

In fact Cameron's best hope of a winning a majority might actually be now, before the worst of the cuts bite and before the Euro crashes bringing British manufacturing to a sudden stop and everyone blames him.

According to opinion polls, the majority of the Brtitish people support Camerons decision and half want to leave the EU.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... anges.html

Please note, opinion poll done by Survation, not the Daily Mail.

The first poll conducted since the acrimonious Brussels summit shows that a total of 62 per cent of people agreed with the Prime Minister’s defiant stance, with just 19 per cent against.
Furthermore, most people believe the euro is doomed to fail and almost half think the EU will break up. They also fear the summit has given too much power to Germany.

If there was a referendum today on whether the UK should quit the EU, is would be likely to produce a resounding Yes. Nearly 50 per cent say we should go our own way, with 33 per cent in favour of staying in.

Like UE, I have always felt that on balance it was better that we stayed in the EU, but I think I am increasingly of the opinion that it is better we pull out. After all, countries like Switzerland do perfectly fine outside the EU.

Sarko might have done us a favour.

[UndercoverElephant]

I suppose the problem is that if the LibDems walk out and cause an election it is just possible that the great British xenophobic anti-foreigner get out of Europe electorate might give the Tories an overall majority.

The last thing the LDs want is an election now.

In fact Cameron's best hope of a winning a majority might actually be now, before the worst of the cuts bite and before the Euro crashes bringing British manufacturing to a sudden stop and everyone blames him.

An election now would be extremely unpredictable. A lot of what are normally LD voters would be faced with a tough choice, and I suspect the result would be another hung parliament, this time with labour as the largest party.

[UndercoverElephant]

Like UE, I have always felt that on balance it was better that we stayed in the EU, but I think I am increasingly of the opinion that it is better we pull out. After all, countries like Switzerland do perfectly fine outside the EU.

Sarko might have done us a favour.

I was mildly pro-European for a long time. I was never in favour of joining the euro, but that was because the time was never right rather than thinking it was wrong in principle. I have come to the conclusion we are better of out of the EU because the EU has become a largely pointless beaurocracy which isn't actually capable of making good decisions in good time. The agriculture and fisheries policies are prime examples. It doesn't work as a 27-state organisation.

[biffvernon]

countries like Switzerland do perfectly fine outside the EU.

Remind us, what do the UK and Switzerland have in common?

[UndercoverElephant]

countries like Switzerland do perfectly fine outside the EU.

Remind us, what do the UK and Switzerland have in common?

A large banking sector, physical isolation from the rest of continent (mountains, sea) and a fierce historic independent streak.