End of the Euro

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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

the_lyniezian wrote:I don't really know everything about the issue or understand it fully, so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I gather, it would seem the problem is trying to impose these fiscal ruls upon the whole EU and not just the Eurozone. If you have a single currency, then of course you need a shared control system- otherwise one country's economy affects the value of the whole currency and all that use it. The same effect does not apply to those who do not use that currency, except indirectly.

So if you want a unanimous treaty, then don't let it affect the non-Eurozone countries, simple as that.
It's not that simple. Or rather, it's easier said than done. It is not the imposition of "fiscal rules" that is the problem here. There are two main problems. The first is the problem of the *ankers and the fact that any serious action to deal with their immoral activities will disproportionately damage the UK economy because, sadly, we provide a home for more of the bastards than the rest of Europe does. Personally I'd impose the rules on them anyway, regardless the national interest issue. We just have to accept we are more infested than most other nations. But there is a more serious problem and that is that a full fiscal union of the eurozone countries is likely to negatively impact non-euro EU countries in unpredicatable ways. Put simply: this wasn't what we signed up to, and that applies doubly to the British people because they haven't had a vote on it for so long.

I personally am now tending towards the idea that we would be better off
outside the EU altogether. I believe the balance has shifted, and that it is now better to be in a smaller vessel than onboard a very large but sinking ship.
Sadly they're so committed to the "ever-closer union" ideal that they don't admit that countries "out" of the Euro are any more than "not yet in"-
Not anymore they don't.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
Aurora

Post by Aurora »

The Independent - 10/12/11

What took place in Brussels in the early hours of yesterday morning was nothing short of a disaster for Britain, and perhaps for the European Union and its single currency, too.

Britain is now more marginalised from the rest of the European Union, and more bereft of political allies on its own continent than it has been for more than a decade – some might say since it joined the European Union in 1973.

The Prime Minister allowed Britain's national interest to be dictated to him by 90 Eurosceptic MPs. Small matter that they constitute a mere 15 per cent of the current Parliament. They have shown how a small group, sharing a clear objective and loudly trumpeting an absolutist cause, can countermand the majority. From the moment the gravity of the euro crisis became apparent, Britain's sceptics had identified an opportunity to realise their goal: the UK's withdrawal from the European Union. The events of the past 48 hours regrettably bring that eventuality closer, de facto, if not – yet – de jure.

Article continues ...
Still, when all is said and done, we've always got that special relationship with our debt-ridden partner-in-crime, the US, to fall back on. Haven't we? :wink: :roll:
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

The comforting thought is that when everything goes pear-shaped, everyone, in Britain and the rest of Europe, can say it's all Cameron's fault, and continue ignoring peak-oil. :wink:
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

It's not actually Cameron's fault at all. I don't think he would have been able to get this agreement through parliament anyway - I think it would probably have brought the coalition down or forced Cameron to depend on votes from pro-EU labour MPs to get it through, which would basically have ripped the Tory party to pieces. What would be the point in signing up to a deal that you know you can't see to your own party or your own public? That's just a waste of everybody's time.

So I think he's actually done the EU a favour - he's actually speeding up a process that would have to happen anyway.

I'm also not at all sure that the public of all of the other 26 EU states would have backed the deal either. The only people who are still really pro-european-integration are the politicians themselves.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/dec20 ... -d10.shtml
The respite in the European crisis is likely to be short-lived. Europe has already plunged back into recession, the US economy remains mired in slump, and economic growth in key “emerging economies” such as China, India and Brazil is slowing. The austerity measures being imposed in the weaker European countries—Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Italy—have already thrown them into recession and deepened their debt crises, and similar policies in France, Britain and other EU countries will now be intensified.

These policies will fuel a growth of working class resistance as well as a sharpening of inter-imperialist antagonisms. It is only a question of time before the euro crisis takes a new turn for the worse.

The exclusion of Britain from new structures and decision-making bodies marks a nodal point in the disintegration of the European Union itself. Under the blows of the crisis, the capitalist integration of Europe that began more than fifty years ago is rapidly unravelling.
Superb Marxist analysis of the ongoing disintergration of the European Union.

As UE says, the populace of these European states will soon revolt over permament austority from the Franco-German duo... see the yahoo video I posted earlier. Far Right forces are emerging across the Continent including France where the National Front are close to winning next years presidential elections.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

UndercoverElephant wrote:It's not actually Cameron's fault at all.
Why should that stop him being blamed?
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:It's not actually Cameron's fault at all.
Why should that stop him being blamed?
Go to hell you left-wing f***. Cameron is standing up for the national interest, something you will never understand.
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the_lyniezian
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Post by the_lyniezian »

Lord Beria3 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:It's not actually Cameron's fault at all.
Why should that stop him being blamed?
Go to hell you left-wing f***. Cameron is standing up for the national interest, something you will never understand.
Bit extreme, surely...? (And criticising someone for being left-wing, who quotes 'Marxist analyses' from radical socialist websites and praises them?)

It needs to be demonstrated how exactly he's acting in the national interest, all things considered (not that I entirely disagree!)
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Lord Beria3 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:It's not actually Cameron's fault at all.
Why should that stop him being blamed?
Go to hell you left-wing f***. Cameron is standing up for the national interest, something you will never understand.
Actually, I think Cameron was just doing the only thing it was politically possible for him to do. I don't think he had a lot of choice. It was politically impossible for him to sign up for it without either putting it to a vote in the house of commons or having a referendum on it. Trying to get it through parliament without a referendum would have led to a mass-rebellion of tory MPs and if he called a referendum then the result would be "no." So even if he had wanted to agree to the new treaty, it would have been pointless and counter-productive to do so.

I think it may now be in the best interest of the UK to leave the EU completely.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
Snail

Post by Snail »

I'm sure i read somewhere that the EU was planning to take control of every european nation's natural resources. I.E the north sea oil, oil reserves, possible shale gas/falkland oil, renewables, food etc, would be controlled and owned at the European level. So Brussels will completely control the UK's energy policy and usuage. But i can't find where i read it.

Since we're so isolated now anyway, maybe we should start making plans to completely leave the EU.
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

Snail wrote:Since we're so isolated now anyway, maybe we should start making plans to completely leave the EU.
Yeah, well maybe we are on a trajectory to leave the EU and just stick with the EFTA (along with Iceland, Norway and Switzerland).

The alternative is complete detachment, like Ukraine, Belarus, the Balkans and North Africa.
featherstick
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Post by featherstick »

Erm, Ukraine has just signed an Association agreement. In a few years, they might be in and we might be out.
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snow hope
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Post by snow hope »

Well, we sure seem to be going further out on a limb now. I admit I don't understand this whole Euro meeting very much and if somebody does and can explain it I would be very grateful.

But accepting the above, it seems a tad foolish not to be in the club that all the closest countries are in, especially knowing that war occured with those countries a number of times over the preceding century. The EU was all about creating the conditions under which war could not occur again I thought? This did not mean we had to have monetary union or fiscal union. On balance over the last few years it seems to me that monetary union, ie the Euro, was not the right thing to do and that the UK made the right decision not to join - easy to say in hindsight of course. :roll:

So I can understand why we wouldn't want to join a sinking ship right at the moment! But I suspect there is much more to it that than very simplistic view. Feel free to enlighten me. :)
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madibe
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Post by madibe »

LB3 Wrote:
Go to hell you left-wing f***. Cameron is standing up for the national interest, something you will never understand.
Ouch. :shock: totally out of order there LB3
Aurora

Post by Aurora »

maudibe wrote:LB3 Wrote:
Go to hell you left-wing f***. Cameron is standing up for the national interest, something you will never understand.
Ouch. :shock: totally out of order there LB3
Hardly surprising though based on his past form. :roll:

Latest from the Beeb:
BBC News - 11/12/11

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has launched an attack on David Cameron for "isolating" the UK in Europe with his veto of changes to the EU treaty.

Sources close to the Liberal Democrat leader said he did not feel the failed eurozone crisis negotiations had resulted in a good deal for the UK.

The BBC understands Mr Clegg was dismayed when he was woken early on Friday to hear of the PM's decision.

Article continues ...
What a wake up call! :wink:

What do you think? A lover's tiff or an unreconcilable breakdown of the marriage? :)

See also: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 75512.html
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