End of the Euro

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 08 Dec 2011, 23:48

Well based on all those people saying things are going down the pan, it looks like some people are speaking the truth and we are all going down the pan! At least that's what most of us, seem to think is in front of us......

Back on topic, I still think the Euro is going down the pan..... I mean if Merkel and Sakozy think they are going to re-nogotiate the whole European Treaty in the next day or two, week or two, month or two, then they really must be at their wit's end. Even seems to me that folks are starting to panic a little. This one really ain't going to end well and could be the real world wake up moment.....

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 08 Dec 2011, 23:52

RenewableCandy wrote:To be sure, but there'll be French people, German people and in fact there are at present Russian people all saying that their country has gone down the pan and all.

Yes. Sometimes I have to take a step back and acknowledge that, while Britain has certainly declined in the areas I care about, life in other countries hasn't been static either. And if jingoism is on the rise in Britain, so will it be in other countries. Which doesn't make it any less depressing to me.

A recent bestseller in Germany was "Deutschland schafft sich ab" - "Germany Dismantles Itself". I've not read it, but I gather it was controversial because its tone was more nationalistic than Germans have allowed themselves to be since the war.

I do not want to give the impression that it is just English nationalism I dislike, it's all nationalism. By which I DON'T mean that one shouldn't be proud of one's country's achievements, but I never accept the idea of "my country, right or wrong". Above all, I hate arrogance and bullying, whether by individuals or by countries.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 09 Dec 2011, 00:19

snow hope wrote:Well based on all those people saying things are going down the pan, it looks like some people are speaking the truth and we are all going down the pan! At least that's what most of us, seem to think is in front of us......

Back on topic, I still think the Euro is going down the pan..... I mean if Merkel and Sakozy think they are going to re-nogotiate the whole European Treaty in the next day or two, week or two, month or two, then they really must be at their wit's end. Even seems to me that folks are starting to panic a little. This one really ain't going to end well and could be the real world wake up moment.....

The Euro, at least as we know it, is certainly going down the pan and that is now an acknowledged fact. That is the reason that a new treaty is required.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 09 Dec 2011, 02:30

I've just received the latest Avaaz.org petition which starts with this (my emphasis)

In 24 hours our leaders may wave through a terrifying Merkel/Sarkozy plan that would permanently ban vital public spending -- all to appease big banks. But we live in a democracy and should have the right to vote on any permanent changes to how Europe operates. Join the call now to save our democratic rights and stop this damaging plan for good:

Where do they live? If they live in Europe they live in a Fascist dictatorship. Don't they realise that? Europe is run by bureaucrats for the benefit of the bureaucrats and big business and has been ever since its inception.

The Parliament is a sham and a scam which allows those who take part to rob us of millions of pounds every year. It make the Commons Expenses row look like a vicar's tea party. The commission turn a blind eye to it so that the so called parliamentarians don't bother them too much. The MEPs don't want to rock the boat that provides them with all their swag.

Democracy? Bah! Humbug! and BOLLOCKS!!

If you want to join the petition you can here

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 09 Dec 2011, 07:24

Well, we wake up this morning to find that the deckchairs have been neatly rearranged but Mr Cameron has jumped overboard to go for a swim on his own.

Who knows whether the iceberg or the sharks are the greater threat?

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 09 Dec 2011, 07:33

biffvernon wrote:Who knows whether the iceberg or the sharks are the greater threat?

I thought he did it to protect the sharks (aka *ankers)!

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 09 Dec 2011, 07:42

Maybe he is one of the sharks and has just returned to his own. Meanwhile, failure at COP17 increases iceberg calving.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 09 Dec 2011, 08:30

UndercoverElephant wrote:The Euro, at least as we know it, is certainly going down the pan and that is now an acknowledged fact. That is the reason that a new treaty is required.

You really should read your Ambrose.

The new treaty is little more than a legaly justificable version of the old one, but the problem is, thats not the problem.
Germany broke the old treaty more than Spain and Italy did.
This isnt a Neo Calvinist morality tale that can be solved by government spending limits.

extractorfan · Post by **extractorfan** » 09 Dec 2011, 08:50

Annecdote:

Guy walked into work today

Morning Jay, stuffed it right up em last night didn't we? good ol' Cameron

I said:

Morning Si, don't know what we've stuffed up where to be honest

Because the truth is, I have absolutley no idea what any of this means, and I suspect nor does anyone else!

the_lyniezian · Post by **the_lyniezian** » 09 Dec 2011, 09:46

kenneal - lagger wrote:I've just received the latest Avaaz.org petition which starts with this (my emphasis)

In 24 hours our leaders may wave through a terrifying Merkel/Sarkozy plan that would permanently ban vital public spending -- all to appease big banks. But we live in a democracy and should have the right to vote on any permanent changes to how Europe operates. Join the call now to save our democratic rights and stop this damaging plan for good:
Where do they live? If they live in Europe they live in a Fascist dictatorship. Don't they realise that? Europe is run by bureaucrats for the benefit of the bureaucrats and big business and has been ever since its inception.

The Parliament is a sham and a scam which allows those who take part to rob us of millions of pounds every year. It make the Commons Expenses row look like a vicar's tea party. The commission turn a blind eye to it so that the so called parliamentarians don't bother them too much. The MEPs don't want to rock the boat that provides them with all their swag.

Democracy? Bah! Humbug! and BOLLOCKS!!

If you want to join the petition you can here

Yes, we need democracy, and greater democratic accountability in the EU*, but not simply as an excuse to be Keynesian...

*Personally I feel we'd be better off in some ways out, but...

the_lyniezian · Post by **the_lyniezian** » 09 Dec 2011, 09:48

And it seemed to me from the radio this morning that it was in fact protecting the banks that was Cameron's main stated reason for throwing a spanner in the works...

All in all, we are 'living in interesting times'...

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 09 Dec 2011, 10:11

kenneal - lagger wrote: Where do they live? If they live in Europe they live in a Fascist dictatorship. Don't they realise that? Europe is run by bureaucrats for the benefit of the bureaucrats and big business and has been ever since its inception.

The Parliament is a sham and a scam which allows those who take part to rob us of millions of pounds every year. It make the Commons Expenses row look like a vicar's tea party. The commission turn a blind eye to it so that the so called parliamentarians don't bother them too much. The MEPs don't want to rock the boat that provides them with all their swag.

Democracy? Bah! Humbug! and BOLLOCKS!!

If you want to join the petition you can here

I don't really see that it makes any difference. What's the point in saving our right to public spending when we don't have any money to spend?!

Still, I've never really believed in the EU, Europhile though I am, since I took the graduate recruitment exam in 1994. It was an expensively disorganised shambles. The whole project seemed a mix of vague, unworkable idealism from some quarters, and cynical opportunism from others.

That said, it's clear that British governments would have managed to f**k up our economy without any help from the EU.

extractorfan · Post by **extractorfan** » 09 Dec 2011, 10:17

But all economies based on growth are f*cked, it's just a matter of timing.

We all want to be last in the race to the bottom.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 09 Dec 2011, 10:22

the_lyniezian wrote:And it seemed to me from the radio this morning that it was in fact protecting the banks that was Cameron's main stated reason for throwing a spanner in the works...

All in all, we are 'living in interesting times'...

Not quite, Cameron was protecting the £100bn+ the city contributes in tax revenues to the government.

Ludwig
The UK's national debt is 40% above the allowed amount, and our annual deficit is more than double the allowed amount.
If we joined the "FiscalUnion" thats nothing of the sort, and were granted ten years to get back into the allowed limits (more than Greece has been allowed), we would have have to stop borrowing £100bn per year AND pay off a further £53bn per year, for ten years

The "Cuts" so far, have been annual increases of £20bn instead of increases of £40bn.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 09 Dec 2011, 10:35

He is protecting the banks, because he see the income they generate as outweighing their parasitical activities. The british banking sector parasitises the whole of Europe, so none of this should surprise anyone.

This looks to me like the start of a disorderly disintegration of the eurozone, and maybe the whole EU.