End of the Euro

[emordnilap]

I'm talking about the euro experiment, emphasising Sleeper's comments about the political failure. It's the so-called 'leaders' I have problems with, not the ordinary people. Crikey, I even like Americans! Not so their self-appointed guides.

I'm hardly singling out Germans - like I implied, I don't want to be Greek. I want the Greeks to be Greek. I want the Germans to be Germans.

How does that prove I'm a "f***ing tiny-minded philistine arsehole"?

Sorry, I flew off the handle there.

No probs, I'm pretty cool with virtually everything you write. Keep it up.

[Adam1]

I'm a Germanophile and I make no apology for that.

...
ever since I started learning foreign languages I have felt myself to be as much European as British.

But then unlike most people I'm not scared of the "other".

+1

[Lord Beria3]

Agree with you Ludwig, and I happen to think that the most stable country in the next generation politically speaking will be Germany.

Don't let the occasional ignorant comment get you wound, its not worth it.

[kenneal - lagger]

I like people. Most individual people who I meet, of what ever nationality, are very nice people who I am more than happy to be friends with. When you get a group though, the mentality of individuals can change.

I've known plenty of Brits who are very nice on their own but when put into a group become very loud and obnoxious, as does the whole group, and British youth on holiday now or at football matches in the past have proved that point. On the other hand I known plenty of Brits who, in a group, are very pleasant as are the group. The trouble is that when the group gets larger the obnoxious can take control, we're getting back to Vortex' Alpha group again, so we see the Hitlers and Stalins taking over countries.

There are also cultural differences in people. If you're bought up in a nice warm country where you don't have to worry about having half a year to get a food supply in to last the other half the year, and the same with a vast amount of fuel to keep you warm at the same time, your attitude to life and work is going to be a lot different to those who do. Hence the cultural difference between Northern and Southern Europe. One culture isn't better than the other but we shouldn't try to impose the values of one culture on the other either.

That's why the Euro can never work without one side subsidising the other at times. If you don't like the subsidies, as the Germans don't, then don't include those people in a mechanism that imposes values on people who don't want them. That is just Empire building by another name. If you don't want people from a colder, richer country coming in and buying up all your best beach houses and causing inflation which drives your tourists to your hated Moslem neighbours next door don't join an economic union. Blame it on the politicians and their Euromania.

Our modern Empire builders have learned a thing or two since the last world wars. They have learned that you can get all the economic benefits of an empire without actually physically conquering another country. This is what the US has done. It has just as much of an empire as the British had and probably has gained even more wealth than we did without having to conquer too many countries.

Yes, there have been wars but not an a global scale. Those wars have been mainly to protect the dollar, as when Saddam Hussein proposed to trade oil for anything but the dollar. Although a small war, as in Afghanistan where there was a perceived threat to national security, can be good for the economic fortunes of the munitions suppliers: not a point to be forgotten.

The conquests have been carried out by imposing the dollar as the currency of world trade. If everyone needs dollars to trade for the essentials of life like oil you are at a great advantage. You can print almost as many dollars as you like to make you richer and people have to trade with you to get the dollars that they need for essentials. And if you control the World Bank and the IMF as well you are even better off.

Germany and, to a lesser extent France, have been doing a similar thing with the Euro. The only trouble is that Germany still has a folk memory of its pre WW2 inflation and the problems that took them into so they aren't too keen on printing the essential paper, as they continue to do in the US, to keep the system alive.

Basically, the German nation is no better than the British nation which is no better than the US nation. The difference is the Germans have been empire building the sneaky way using financial means, we've been doing it with the gun again and the US have been using both.

I've not met many Germans but the ones that I have have been very pleasant as were the more numerous Americans, although I've avoided the ones I didn't like the look or sound of. Most Greeks are wonderful and I went to school with half the London Polish and Italian populations (Catholic School) and got on well with them. I've found that the French cheat to win the rugby matches that I've played against them so they do not figure very highly in my ratings list although there are a few that I would and do share a drink and conversation with.

Ramble over (Note to self - Stop adding bits.)

[emordnilap]

One culture isn't better than the other but we shouldn't try to impose the values of one culture on the other either.

+1

[UndercoverElephant]

Merkel and Sarkozy are now attempting to do something which is politically impossible. We are being told that there is going to be a new treaty in the Spring - one which effectively creates a european superstate out of the eurozone. How on Earth is this supposed to actually happen? In four months they are planning on negotiating a much more important treaty than any previous european treaties and also getting it ratified not only by all 17 eurozone countries, but all the other EU contries too???? They are going to do this even though it effectively means the end of national democracy in the eurozone states? They are going to do this even though there is a conflict between the interests of the eurozone countries and the non-eurozone countries and that all of the non-eurozone countries have a VETO???

On top of all that it won't even work. It won't work because the whole thing is a response to what the financial markets are doing and the financial markets don't believe the German economy can carry the rest of the eurozone as is being proposed - they think it will bring Germany down rather than managing to support the bankrupt PIIGS.

This really is the last ditch. When this plan fails, there is nowhere left to go apart from a breakup of the euro and a new treaty for the whole of the EU - one which repatriates powers from Brussels and shrinks the bureauocracy.

[Lord Beria3]

Merkel and Sarkozy are now attempting to do something which is politically impossible. We are being told that there is going to be a new treaty in the Spring - one which effectively creates a european superstate out of the eurozone. How on Earth is this supposed to actually happen? In four months they are planning on negotiating a much more important treaty than any previous european treaties and also getting it ratified not only by all 17 eurozone countries, but all the other EU contries too???? They are going to do this even though it effectively means the end of national democracy in the eurozone states? They are going to do this even though there is a conflict between the interests of the eurozone countries and the non-eurozone countries and that all of the non-eurozone countries have a VETO???

On top of all that it won't even work. It won't work because the whole thing is a response to what the financial markets are doing and the financial markets don't believe the German economy can carry the rest of the eurozone as is being proposed - they think it will bring Germany down rather than managing to support the bankrupt PIIGS.

This really is the last ditch. When this plan fails, there is nowhere left to go apart from a breakup of the euro and a new treaty for the whole of the EU - one which repatriates powers from Brussels and shrinks the bureauocracy.

+1 f***ing one

[biffvernon]

Isn't that just a deck-chair rearranging exercise? What's needed is a transition to a truly sustainable, steady-state economy.

[UndercoverElephant]

Isn't that just a deck-chair rearranging exercise? What's needed is a transition to a truly sustainable, steady-state economy.

How can anyone make plans for a truly sustainable economy when they are in the middle of a political impasse? How can they govern at all under those conditions? You are talking about what is the proper goal, but at the moment we do not have a properly-functioning political system so all goals are pipe-dreams.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16048131

David Cameron has said he will not sign any reworked EU treaty designed to solve the eurozone crisis if it does not contain safeguards to protect British interests.

This threatens to kill the whole EU, not just the eurozone. The political gap between the pro-Europeans and anti-Europeans (for want of better terms) is too big already and getting bigger all the time because the ant-federalists believe that events on the ground have demonstrated they were right all along to be sceptical that it would ever actually work. What we are seeing now is the last desperate attempt by the federalists to make their dream a reality, but it will fail.

[frank_begbie]

Merkel and Sarkozy are now attempting to do something which is politically impossible. We are being told that there is going to be a new treaty in the Spring - one which effectively creates a european superstate out of the eurozone. How on Earth is this supposed to actually happen? In four months they are planning on negotiating a much more important treaty than any previous european treaties and also getting it ratified not only by all 17 eurozone countries, but all the other EU contries too???? They are going to do this even though it effectively means the end of national democracy in the eurozone states? They are going to do this even though there is a conflict between the interests of the eurozone countries and the non-eurozone countries and that all of the non-eurozone countries have a VETO???

On top of all that it won't even work. It won't work because the whole thing is a response to what the financial markets are doing and the financial markets don't believe the German economy can carry the rest of the eurozone as is being proposed - they think it will bring Germany down rather than managing to support the bankrupt PIIGS.

This really is the last ditch. When this plan fails, there is nowhere left to go apart from a breakup of the euro and a new treaty for the whole of the EU - one which repatriates powers from Brussels and shrinks the bureauocracy.

Its all buying time though, while they get prepared for the riots.

In the meantime, something might turn up

[Ludwig]

Good post ludwig. I think people look pretty ignorant when they talk about national stereotypes, based on nothing but the tabloid press opinion of those nationalities.

+1

Thanks - glad that I'm not in minority of one!

I actually think national stereotypes have some truth in them, but the superior tone adopted by many British people regarding foreigners lacks conviction and often seems born out of a secret sense of inferiority. Generally speaking, those who have least to boast about, boast loudest.

If we had actual achievements to boast about, we wouldn't derive our identity purely from putting down foreigners - a very sad state of affairs. Though pretty standard human behaviour, admittedly, and not the preserver of the British.

[kenneal - lagger]

If we had actual achievements to boast about,

Go read some history books.

Though pretty standard human behaviour, admittedly, and not the preserver of the British.

That's why I'm not going to beat myself up about it. I quite enjoy the epithet - "Rostbif." Much better than being a veal muncher.

Having spent the day wrestling Limousin and Charolais calves in the wind and rain, I'm not very enamoured with all things French. I look forward to dealing with some laid back Herefords in future and enjoying some of the resulting beef this evening.

[Ludwig]

If we had actual achievements to boast about,

Go read some history books.

Recent ones. A country can't spend all its time living in the past.

There were things Britain used to do well, until relatively recently. British TV was, without a doubt, the best in the world until the mid-80s. The British sense of humour used to be wry and eccentric, but it has become largely debased by poor education (few people understand nuance and wit any more) and by increasingly aggressive social attitudes, so that irony has degraded into sarcasm and cruelty.

Britain used to be a relatively polite and tolerant place, but all I see now is rudeness, selfishness and anger.

What have we achieved over the past 30 years? Demolished a once-excellent education system, set our country up as the global capital of financial Ponzi schemes, ruined the lives of millions of innocent people in the Middle East... Not a great record.

In other words, many of the British values I used to be proud of have gone full circle and been replaced by their opposites. The Britain I dislike is not the Britain of the past, but the Britain of today - a tired, complacent, angry place with, as the Rough Guide puts it, a chronic identity crisis.

I dare say our nation's moral decline has been mirrored in other countries; I've travelled to quite a few places in Europe over the past decade and have detected something of the same ennui in many of them - though the pervasive selfishness of people in Britain remains striking. One can sensibly regard the West as a single "European" civilisation, and on one level it's true, we are all going down together.

[Lord Beria3]

+ f***ing one Ludwig.

Britain is many ways is going down the tubes... many reasons, both cultural and economic, short term and longterm have contributed to this decline.

[RenewableCandy]

To be sure, but there'll be French people, German people and in fact there are at present Russian people all saying that their country has gone down the pan and all.