If you had two years to transform a pasture.....

Keela · Post by **Keela** » 04 Nov 2011, 15:28

You could of course plough leaving strips unploughed. Then there would be an undisturbed haven for fungi worms etc from which they can re-inhabit the ploughed bit?

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 05 Nov 2011, 12:40

If done properly plowing green sword dose little harm to the worms and soil bacteria and is often helpful. By properly I mean a plow set up to cut as deep as the furrows are wide and to roll the sod completely over so the sods end up upside down with all the grass on them buried. This sets the sods to rotting and creates a field day for the worms. As your veggies put down roots they find a layer of decaying grass and roots where the nutrients are being released.
Potatoes particular do well in a field of fresh and rotting sods and are a good first crop for land that is being rotated in from pasture/hay to row crops.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » 06 Nov 2011, 11:09

I dunno if it was the best way to do it but I have just slaughtered 3 pigs which I had penned with electric fence into an old pasture. It also had several old gnarly overgrown fruit bushes which would have been a nightmare to dig out. Pigs have completely ploughed the whole area and nothing remains of the fruit bushes. Ploughed and manured ready for tilling in the spring. In addition I have a great deal of meat and bacon together with lots of soap made with the excess fat (thanks to Contadina).

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 07 Nov 2011, 12:56

I'm going to agree with Biff for once, if manure really is unlimited, dump it on a foot deep.

Otherwise, plough deep.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 07 Nov 2011, 14:00

DominicJ wrote:I'm going to agree with Biff for once, if manure really is unlimited, dump it on a foot deep.

Otherwise, plough deep.

That's not agreeing with me at all! I say do not plough.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 07 Nov 2011, 14:43

I'm going to agree with Biff for once, if manure really is unlimited, dump it on a foot deep and do not plough

If manure isnt that unlimited, plough baby plough!

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 07 Nov 2011, 18:51

biffvernon wrote:Noooo.... No digging, no ploughing, no sub-soiling, no contractors. Leave that valuable soil structure with all it's wildlife alone. Make compost from the cut grass. Turn over the topmost layer - just the turf - only where you want to grow stuff. Add compost and topsoil from areas which are to become paths on top and grow you veg in that. Always maximise organic matter wherever possible but allow the worms and other creepy-crawlies to incorporate it. Let the mycorrhiza transfer the nutrients to your plants' roots.

That sounds like plowing done properly to me. Much better then rotary tilling in existing sod. Rotary tilling chops up the weed plants root systems into thousands of segments all ready to start growing as soon as they are rained on. Plowing puts them upside down intact with enough soil above them to keep out sunlight so the seeds you plant get well started before the weeds can reverse direction and grow back to the surface.
Also any manure should be plowed under unless it has composted long enough to kill the weed seeds it always contains.

Nicko · Post by **Nicko** » 08 Nov 2011, 08:01

I started with a half acre plot of heavy clay previously used as a horse paddock. I have turned it in to a productive food growing area without the use of machinery or too much backache in a little under 9 years. I developed a little each year as I focused more clearly on my family's needs and our ability to manage the land.

Teaming with Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis is a good book to read before any decision is made on soil management.

Nick

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 10 Nov 2011, 23:31

Nicko wrote:I started with a half acre plot of heavy clay previously used as a horse paddock. I have turned it in to a productive food growing area without the use of machinery or too much backache in a little under 9 years. I developed a little each year as I focused more clearly on my family's needs and our ability to manage the land.

Teaming with Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis is a good book to read before any decision is made on soil management.

Nick

I can't wait 9 years, are there any shortcuts ?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Nov 2011, 23:47

Come off it Nicko - lots of your land was very productive several years ago.

It does not take 9 years to turn grass into potatoes; it takes four months. The point is that one person can't do a big area in a short time without machinery. The OP should not be thinking of converting all the two acres in one go.

Nicko · Post by **Nicko** » 12 Nov 2011, 08:16

biffvernon wrote:Come off it Nicko - lots of your land was very productive several years ago.
It does not take 9 years to turn grass into potatoes; it takes four months. The point is that one person can't do a big area in a short time without machinery. The OP should not be thinking of converting all the two acres in one go.

Oh yes, I was growing food on the patch within the first month of moving , but I hadn't got the whole half acre cultivated until this spring, and it has taken this long for the orchard to start really producing and the nut trees to yield.
Starting small and slow meant I didn't make any huge mistakes which wasted lots of resources.
Charles Dowding's book 'Organic Gardening the natural no dig way' is a good place to look for a system which requires very little work and is easy to set up on any soil type.
If you want a book about food growing on a larger scale(although Dowding's system works on any scale depending on the work force available) then I would recommened 'Growing Green- Organic techniques for a sustainable future' by Jenny Hall and Iain Tolhurst.

Nick

postie · Post by **postie** » 12 Nov 2011, 17:01

biffvernon wrote:Come off it Nicko - lots of your land was very productive several years ago.
It does not take 9 years to turn grass into potatoes; it takes four months. The point is that one person can't do a big area in a short time without machinery. The OP should not be thinking of converting all the two acres in one go.

Indeed, if it's a very large area, what about parcelling out sections that you have no immediate plans for, as private allotments? The "rent" could either be a percentage of whatever they grow, or a hand with some of the land you have immediate plans for... both ways you're a winner. And the unused land is turned over and used in the process.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 13 Nov 2011, 23:01

postie wrote:
biffvernon wrote:Come off it Nicko - lots of your land was very productive several years ago.
It does not take 9 years to turn grass into potatoes; it takes four months. The point is that one person can't do a big area in a short time without machinery. The OP should not be thinking of converting all the two acres in one go.
Indeed, if it's a very large area, what about parcelling out sections that you have no immediate plans for, as private allotments? The "rent" could either be a percentage of whatever they grow, or a hand with some of the land you have immediate plans for... both ways you're a winner. And the unused land is turned over and used in the process.

That would be a great idea in the South East, but over in West Wales there is plenty of land available already. The smallholdings are often remote too, people won't travel too far.

I have no objection to hiring out or even buying a tractor if need be, and would rather prepare more land than I need at present as it might take a few years for all the organic matter to really start to work on the soil. It's a case of prepare it today for growing tomorrow, once that initial work is done I can concentrate on setting up some small business ventures within the local and wider community. I may even accept payment for my mechanical or electrical work as labour in the fields when I'm older.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 15 Nov 2011, 08:35

Catweazle wrote:It's a case of prepare it today for growing tomorrow,

It doesn't really work like that. If you start with pasture but plough it up and don't use it you will just get a rather unproductive field of the less useful grasses and other weeds. If you leave it as pasture while you are not using it you can at least sell the hay/sillage and the soil will retain it's structure, life and fertility.

Don't plough.

Post by **adam2** » 15 Nov 2011, 08:47

Keela wrote:You could of course plough leaving strips unploughed. Then there would be an undisturbed haven for fungi worms etc from which they can re-inhabit the ploughed bit?

Friends did that.
They have a medium sized farm, mainly pasture for dairy cattle, with very small numbers of pigs, sheep, and hens as a sideline.
They dont grow crops on a commericial scale, but wanted vegetables for their own use, for a large family.
The land nearest the farmhouse is of poor qaulity and no large yields may be expected.
They ploughed furrows spaced well apart, not turning each furrow into the next as with proper ploughing.
Seeds and manure or compost were placed into the furrow and then covered with soil.
A heavy horse was used for ploughing, with the remainder of the work done mainly by hand.
The undisturbed ground between the rows is easily walked upon for weeding etc. And as posted above there is less disturbance.

The soil is gradually improving as a result of adding manure and wood ash. Chemical fertiliser is used in moderation.