If you had two years to transform a pasture.....

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 03 Nov 2011, 15:09

.....into a productive vegetable garden, what would you do to it ?

Almost all the smallholdings for sale in South Wales are "Equine Properties" with pasture fields. I'd like to transform one of these fields into a rich, fertile veg field. I'm giving myself 2 years to do it before serious growing starts.

What's the best approach ? Assume the field is medium clay with slate under the top layer of soil / grass.

I'm thinking that I should plough in plenty of manure for a start, plus some chalk or lime to balance the acidity of the manure. I also thought about building a large oven and charring a load of dried cow / horse manure to bio-char. There's no shortage of manure. I would plough this in too.

After preparing the soil, a green manure crop like borage for a season to get some nitrogen into the soil.

Is there anything else I should do ? Any suggestions welcome, I've never done anything like this before.

the_lyniezian · Post by **the_lyniezian** » 03 Nov 2011, 16:12

If they're being sold with horses in mind, do you need planning permission to grow veg? (Out of sheer curiosity).

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 03 Nov 2011, 16:21

Heh heh. We asked on FreeCycle a few years ago for any unwanted seed, old, new, whatever, just so long as it was not wanted, and scattered it over a few square metres. It turned into a lush patch of veg. and (mainly) flowers, all of which we just left to the bees and birds. Very colourful, very dynamic and productive! Some of the stuff still grows there, we haven't really touched it, it's just 'stuff' that grows and we haven't had the inclination to do anything with that area yet, it's just wild I suppose. I'm assuming the soil has benefited as nothing much has been taken away and a lot of the plant matter has decayed over the years.

Not that I'm suggesting that you try it, Cat. Well, I am, actually...

it's sort of a random permaculture idea type of thing. It might appeal to some people. No work apart from collecting some packets of seeds. And a few people even posted them, some actually delivered them!

If I had a big patch of land that I couldn't be bothered dealing with, I'd do the random scatter thing on it, additionally to FreeCycle maybe looking for some retailer trying to get rid of old stock.

Janco2 · Post by **Janco2** » 03 Nov 2011, 16:23

I wouldn't bother to do any ploughing but would simply put on as much manure and organic matter as I could Get hold of and then grow green manures in that. I'd try to use a large area for a forest garden so would try to get the canopy trees in ASAP.

SleeperService · Post by **SleeperService** » 03 Nov 2011, 16:29

If horses have been on it for a while it will be very compacted soil and will drain poorly especially if it's clay.

Yes I think the more manure the better then I'd find a farmer with a plough and turn it over ASAP and get it harrowed at the same time. Plant comfrey for over winter soil protection and for green manure.

Test the soil in the spring and top dress if needed to adjust the ph.

Any areas that aren't going to be planted in the first year you can plant the red clover mentioned elsewhere for super nitrogen fixing although it does need a full year to work well.

Good luck

bealers · Post by **bealers** » 03 Nov 2011, 17:17

emordnilap wrote:Heh heh. We asked on FreeCycle a few years ago for any unwanted seed, old, new, whatever, just so long as it was not wanted, and scattered it over a few square metres. It turned into a lush patch of veg. and (mainly) flowers, all of which we just left to the bees and birds. Very colourful, very dynamic and productive!

Fantastic. I might try that myself.

alternative-energy · Post by **alternative-energy** » 03 Nov 2011, 17:31

SleeperService wrote:If horses have been on it for a while it will be very compacted soil and will drain poorly especially if it's clay.

Yes I think the more manure the better then I'd find a farmer with a plough and turn it over ASAP and get it harrowed at the same time. Plant comfrey for over winter soil protection and for green manure.

Test the soil in the spring and top dress if needed to adjust the ph.

Any areas that aren't going to be planted in the first year you can plant the red clover mentioned elsewhere for super nitrogen fixing although it does need a full year to work well.

Good luck

How much land are we talking? It probably will be very compacted due to the horses, ploughing will probably not be enough. Get a contractor to sub-soil it first then do your bit to build fertility. Don't know anything about bio-char so can't comment there.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 03 Nov 2011, 19:06

Noooo.... No digging, no ploughing, no sub-soiling, no contractors. Leave that valuable soil structure with all it's wildlife alone. Make compost from the cut grass. Turn over the topmost layer - just the turf - only where you want to grow stuff. Add compost and topsoil from areas which are to become paths on top and grow you veg in that. Always maximise organic matter wherever possible but allow the worms and other creepy-crawlies to incorporate it. Let the mycorrhiza transfer the nutrients to your plants' roots.

alternative-energy · Post by **alternative-energy** » 03 Nov 2011, 20:10

biffvernon wrote:Noooo.... No digging, no ploughing, no sub-soiling, no contractors. Leave that valuable soil structure with all it's wildlife alone. Make compost from the cut grass. Turn over the topmost layer - just the turf - only where you want to grow stuff. Add compost and topsoil from areas which are to become paths on top and grow you veg in that. Always maximise organic matter wherever possible but allow the worms and other creepy-crawlies to incorporate it. Let the mycorrhiza transfer the nutrients to your plants' roots.

He's got two years Biff. If it's been compacted by horses for years it will have a poor soil structure. Your option will of course work on the small scale and even then it will take a long time before the soil structure is improved. CW wants to grow veg and for this good drainage is essential. If he'e going for a forest garden then obviously there's no need as the soil structure will improve over time due to perennial roots leatf litter etc.
If there is a large area of land to work for veg and CW wants to get on with it which I suspect, then I would subsoil.
Hope all goes well whatever you decide.

edit: Maybe dig a soil profile pit in a few places to see what's really going on

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 03 Nov 2011, 21:41

Catweazel says it's pasture with the estate agent's description of 'equine property'. We don't know whether the soil is compacted or how well drained it is. My suggestion is based on a the likely state of affairs. Compaction is much more likely in an ex-arable field that has had machinery on it for decades than a pasture trampled by horses.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 03 Nov 2011, 23:41

Good input, thanks

I hadn't thought about soil compaction but it makes sense for a field that has had horses in and been mowed for hay.

All the ideas are useful, I can try them in different fields.

I'm not planning on livestock for at least a couple of years, but one idea is to plant Jerusalem Artichokes and let pigs root them up and fertilise the ground at the same time. This appeals to me, but realistically I need to sort my veg first, not running before I can walk.

Related to Biffs ideas, I could use a subsoiler to break up the compacted soil then scatter manure on top and let the worms pull it down ? Perhaps this is a compromise, avoiding too much ploughing . Would this take a long time ?

lurker · Post by **lurker** » 04 Nov 2011, 00:48

Might be worth putting in some field drains in if its a very wet heavy clay soil also buying in a few tonnes of horticultural sand to improve soil texture.

Horse manure you can never have too much etc, so first thing is to plan were to build is a compost heap that has vehicle acess & plenty of scope for expasion & plan the garden around this so you don't have to wheel barrow stuff to far.

Don't make narrow akward paths that a wheel barrow can't navigate. Make them generous

Do you have a a water source on site?

A polytunnel is one of the best investments you could make but needs a load of watering.

Black pastic is a good way to clear areas for planting.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 04 Nov 2011, 04:33

Are you growing veg for sale, Cat, or just for yourself because the scale of what you intend doing would govern the approach. And what is the soil depth before rock?

If it is for yourself and the soils is deep I would say put your manure on in the shape of beds, say 10m x 1m to 1.2m wide, and cover it for a year with a light proof cover and let the worms do the work. If you want some veg straight off do as Biff says and turn the turf over, cover with compost/manure and grow in that. If the soil is shallow, you'll want to make raised beds by digging the turf and soil from between the beds and putting it on top of the beds.

I agree with Lurker but would go further. Two or three polytunnels are good so that you can not only extend the seasons but rotate the crops as well. You can pick them up on Ebay for a song.

If you're growing for sale, I'll leave others to advise you on that.

alternative-energy · Post by **alternative-energy** » 04 Nov 2011, 07:47

Catweazle wrote:
I'm not planning on livestock for at least a couple of years, but one idea is to plant Jerusalem Artichokes and let pigs root them up and fertilise the ground at the same time. This appeals to me, but realistically I need to sort my veg first, not running before I can walk.

Not a bad idea but you need lots of Jerusalem artichokes to do this. Build up our stocks now. Also plant the variety Fuseau as they aren't so knobbly and easier to deal with in the kitchen and, if you wish to go down this route, easier to sell.
I have used pigs to the last two years in my rotation scheme and from my experience they do a great job. All you need is two strands of electric fence one 10 -15 cm from the ground the other about 30 -35 cm from the ground. I use spiles and screw in electric strands holders with the aid of a drill and attachment. Very quick and easy.
In my experience, two years of raising and breeding pigs, it's important to give the pigs a limited amount of ground to turn over, say in 1 -2 weeks. They will do this surprisingly quickly. Then move them to a fresh area, this is to avoid compaction which can become an issue if the ground becomes poached. Therefore it's best to have an arc that's easily moveable.
Hopefully your pigs then go to slaughter in the spring having done the majority of your ground prep.
I have two weaners doing exactly the same thing at the moment on my annual veg patch of about 1/2 acre.

SleeperService · Post by **SleeperService** » 04 Nov 2011, 14:53

John Harrison says that a double spade depth makes veg growing a lot more productive. My efforts this year suggests he's right. That is about 15 inches of turned soil depth. Hence the ploughing, it need only be done once.

My veg plot (phase 1) is 15ft by 12ft double depth dug and the bottom of the trench loosened with a fork. I wouldn't want to do a much larger area in one go

I'm also putting manure on top of the forked layer before backfilling again as John's suggestion. The idea is that worms drag the manure deeper into the soil rather than just occupying the top few inches of soil. I hope this is a once only event