California and Mexico blackout

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 09 Sep 2011, 08:45

BBC reports.

Looks like they lost a couple of cables.

Would make an interesting study to see how people react to power loss.

madibe · Post by **madibe** » 09 Sep 2011, 09:59

Perhaps they need to get used to it?

Many residents complained of the stifling heat in the absence of air conditioning.

It certainly seems pretty fragile if turning off one piece of equipment brings the system down

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 09 Sep 2011, 10:49

Just about the size of the population here in Ireland!

Hmmm.

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 09 Sep 2011, 19:25

I remember being very underwhelmed when visiting California
and all the air traffic control, ground approach radar and ILS
at LA International Airport was off for hours on end.

According to the TV news it was all caused by a pole mounted transformer overheating (which seems a very common event there and a frequent cause of bush fires) and the emergency diesel generators refusing to start up due to a lack of fuel in the tanks (!)........

I would imagine a Mexican got blamed for it.

(adam2 will appreciate this one!)

Post by **adam2** » 09 Sep 2011, 21:17

Roger Adair wrote:I remember being very underwhelmed when visiting California
and all the air traffic control, ground approach radar and ILS
at LA International Airport was off for hours on end.

According to the TV news it was all caused by a pole mounted transformer overheating (which seems a very common event there and a frequent cause of bush fires) and the emergency diesel generators refusing to start up due to a lack of fuel in the tanks (!)........

I would imagine a Mexican got blamed for it.

(adam2 will appreciate this one!)

Indeed !
I have very little faith in standby generators functioning as intended or as expected when called upon.
I have a bit more faith if the installation has been maintained by myself.
The most common problems are
Discharged or defective starter batteries.
Coolant insufficient, or leaks out.
Insuficient fuel, tanks sized for only a few hours, and not even full.
Overheating/lack of ventilation.
Starts and runs briefly but trips or breaks due to electrical overload
Defective, or improperly installed changeover switchgear.
Lack of lubricating oil, it needs topping up you know on a long run !
And an increasing problem, if the generator DOES work, the "elf an safety" send everyone home and close the facility because something such as the light in the disabled toilet is not on the generator supply.

If properly installed, maintained, and used, large diesel generators SHOULD be reliable, they are based on marine or railway locomotive engines that run for days or even months at a time.
In practice though, reliability is often poor.

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 09 Sep 2011, 22:44

adam2 wrote: Indeed !
I have very little faith in standby generators functioning as intended or as expected when called upon.
I have a bit more faith if the installation has been maintained by myself.
The most common problems are
Discharged or defective starter batteries.
Coolant insufficient, or leaks out.
Insuficient fuel, tanks sized for only a few hours, and not even full.
Overheating/lack of ventilation.
Starts and runs briefly but trips or breaks due to electrical overload
Defective, or improperly installed changeover switchgear.
Lack of lubricating oil, it needs topping up you know on a long run !
And an increasing problem, if the generator DOES work, the "elf an safety" send everyone home and close the facility because something such as the light in the disabled toilet is not on the generator supply.

If properly installed, maintained, and used, large diesel generators SHOULD be reliable, they are based on marine or railway locomotive engines that run for days or even months at a time.
In practice though, reliability is often poor.

Can I vote this as the best post of 2011?

Thats a cracker Adam2. In fact can I come and live with you when TSHTF, as I know I would survive in your company!

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Sep 2011, 10:42

What with not knowing much about power grids, I've never understood why a failure at one point of a large network should close the whole network. Seems to me as though there is a fundamental design flaw in the way grids are built.

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 10 Sep 2011, 11:39

biffvernon wrote:What with not knowing much about power grids, I've never understood why a failure at one point of a large network should close the whole network. Seems to me as though there is a fundamental design flaw in the way grids are built.

All engineering is a compromise.

Post by **adam2** » 10 Sep 2011, 11:58

biffvernon wrote:What with not knowing much about power grids, I've never understood why a failure at one point of a large network should close the whole network. Seems to me as though there is a fundamental design flaw in the way grids are built.

Yes, it could be argued that the design is flawed.
Though OTOH it might be argued that such large failures are very rare, and that spending many billions on prevention is not justified.

In many cases large scale failures are totally unexpected and take the operators completly by suprise.
The behaviour of large complex power grids is not perfectly understood, especialy under very rare transient or emergency conditions.

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 11 Sep 2011, 21:58

Maybe the x-class flare from the sun had something to do with it?

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 11 Sep 2011, 23:12

snow hope wrote:Maybe the x-class flare from the sun had something to do with it?

They're blaming it on human error compounded by a system failure. An equipment swap out that went wrong and that single failure amplified itself through the system culminating in their 2 nukes having to shut down when they suddenly had nothing to supply.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 12 Sep 2011, 18:17

The failure of a single piece of equipment in Arizona ignited a massive blackout that left nearly 6 million people without power, baffling utility officials and highlighting the vulnerability of the U.S. electrical grid.

Authorities in Arizona said Friday that safeguards built into the system should have prevented the breakdown at a substation from cascading across Southern Arizona and into California and Northern Mexico.

They didn't, and the resulting instability led to the sudden shutdown of the San Onofre nuclear-power plant, about 50 miles north of San Diego, cutting off power to a large swath of Southern California.

"We lost all connection to the outside world," said James Avery, San Diego Gas & Electric's senior vice president of power supply. "This happened in a matter of seconds."

Energy experts and utility officials agreed the breakdown was troubling.

"We're struggling," said Daniel Froetscher, vice president of energy delivery for Arizona Public Service (APS), the largest electricity provider in Arizona. "We have to take a hard look at the system design and figure out exactly what happened. ... We don't know the underlying causes."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... age10.html