Peak Oil & UFO Technology

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 21 Jun 2006, 22:50

dr_doom wrote:I've been leafleted twice this year by 9 11
truth campaigners, why would they go to so much effort if it was total bullshit?

This is fallacious logic.

Would you believe every religion in the world, if they knocked on your door and preached the Word of God? Why would they go to so much effort, if it was total bullshit?

They go to so much effort because they believe it. It doesn't mean they're right.

Honestly, it's not your point of view that grates on me so much, but the horrible horrible illogic you use to defend it. You'd do yourself a great service by arguing your case properly, and my teeth wouldn't spend 95% of their time on edge every time I read your posts. All I can say is, thank god you're writing mostly about 9/11 and not peak oil, cos I sure as hell wouldn't want you on my side of the argument.

dr_doom · Post by **dr_doom** » 21 Jun 2006, 23:26

Tess wrote: This is fallacious logic.

Would you believe every religion in the world, if they knocked on your door and preached the Word of God? Why would they go to so much effort, if it was total bullshit?

That was just an anecdotal observation. Walking around random areas of london I've been given "9 11 was an inside job" literature by people doing it off their own backs, twice in the space of 3 months, not for profit.

Wasn't supposed to be taken as the foundations of my entire argument.

They go to so much effort because they believe it. It doesn't mean they're right.

Honestly, it's not your point of view that grates on me so much, but the horrible horrible illogic you use to defend it. You'd do yourself a great service by arguing your case properly, and my teeth wouldn't spend 95% of their time on edge every time I read your posts. All I can say is, thank god you're writing mostly about 9/11 and not peak oil, cos I sure as hell wouldn't want you on my side of the argument.

Didn't mean to offend.

wayne72 · Post by **wayne72** » 22 Jun 2006, 00:38

The trouble with Conspiracy Theorist is that the media have portrayed the image of a Anorach, ugly, unshaven, chubby person who wears jumpers knitted by his grandmother.

While in reality, real Conspiracy Buffs are quite intelligent various looking people whom ware normal clothes and live normal lifes.

Post by **mikepepler** » 22 Jun 2006, 06:28

Bozzio wrote:I don't promote PO much anymore. The event itself will be played out to us all in time and very few of us will listen in the meantime. Sorry guys but this forum has only attracted 289 members in over 1.5 years. compared with a UK 9/11 truth website I attend regularly which now has almost 600 members attained in the 11 months since its creation. (http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/)

I'd like to make a few comments here:

- Pick a number, say 50 posts, and that nineeleven forum has 51 people who have made that many, we have 57 - so despite the difference in size, the activity is similar. But I don't want to get into competing with other forums...

- There are typically twice as many guest users logged into this forums as there are registered - remember you don't have to register to just read stuff.

- A lot of people visit the main PowerSwitch website but do not use the forums. I did this myself at the start, and initially only used the forum as we were trying to kick-start some discussions. This is why although the forums are probably the most important feature of the website for those of us that use them, for a new visitor they may be almost irrelevant, as they mainly contain people's opinions, and a new visitor has no idea who to listen to and who to ignore. That's why it's important to keep the news and other pages full of good info (volunteers email James!).

- I'm not sure how many DVDs we have shipped, but I'd geuss it is over 1000 by now, and each has probably been watched by several people. Various memebers have organised large-venue screenings in their areas.

- PowerSwitch, or its members, have been mentioned in other online news sites for articles they have written.

- PowerSwitch has been solely or joint responsible for organising several conferences.

Anyway, that's enough, the point is that the number of people registered on this forum is a poor indicator of what we're achieving. Peak Oil is covered in the news a lot more than it was only a year ago, and we have played a small part in making that happen, through persistent contacts with journalists, etc. On the other hand, "9-11 truth" stuff is not in the news any more than it was a year ago (though it would be a good thing if it was).

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 22 Jun 2006, 09:13

wayne72 wrote:
Maybe i've read too many of Erich Von Danikens books

Can you ever read too many books? I guess you can read too many of one type of book. I think is good to read books from a number of different perspectives and look at different alternatives plus some books on critical thinking like ?Why do people believe in wired things?? and ?Demon Haunted World?, or something more like a course book.

dr_doom · Post by **dr_doom** » 22 Jun 2006, 09:27

But I don't want to get into competing with other forums...

But you will anyway.

I'm not sure how many DVDs we have shipped, but I'd geuss it is over 1000 by now

One small thing I've noticed in the difference between the peak oil and 9 11 causes.
Is the 9 11 movement seems to care a lot less about profits.

All the producers of 9 11 documentaries quite clearly state, "we don't care if you
copy our dvds and don't pay us anything, we just care about more people learning the truth".
Hence quite often 9 11 truth campaigners will give dvds away to interested people for free.

Whereas at a recent peak oil meeting there was a lot of talk about selling "peak oil: how
cuba survived". Which apparently has a fixed wholesale price of ?x.
If all they cared about was informing more people why not make a similar statement
and allow copies to be distributed for next to nothing.

DVDs cost virtually nothing to mass-produce these days. Even if you print a fancy cover.

I realise it's easier to criticise than it is to actually get off
your arse and organise something. So I commend powerswitch for all
the rest of its great achivements.

"9-11 truth" stuff is not in the news any more than it was a year ago

The media will never run a story endorsing 9 11 conspiracy theories,
to do so would be to admit they have been complicit for the last 5 years.

Though in the past year:

Charlie Sheen has gone public with "questions" and got quite a bit of airtime on CNN's showbiz tonight
The Movie Flight 93 opened to huge protests by 9 11 truth campaigners
The missing video from the pentagon was strategically released as a feeble attempt to discredit the movement.

Bozzio · Post by **Bozzio** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:13

Hi Guys,

The venomous responses are always typical from people who despise conspiracy theorists. I often wonder why people don't like such talk but can't fathom it out. I guess it's because such discussion undermines the staus quo and that is anthema for most people.

The simple fact is, PO is not just about a decline in energy. It is about politics, greed, corruption, war, hatred, disinformation, spin......and so on. PO will be a tool for a whole range of political changes which could make the loss of our pensions system or mass unemployment look quite trivial.

I doubt whether most of the critics of this stuff on here know the first thing about history. How Guy fawkes was actually a patsie to double agent Thomas Percy embrolied in a plot created by Lord Salisbury to change the mind of James I. In other words he was part of a conspiracy. Or how the Red Brigades and Bader-Meinhof were actually terrorist cells under the guidance of NATO intelligence; the former carrying out 1400 acts of terrorism over several decades to prevent Italy falling under communist rule (something it has now done and has just formed closer ties with Russia as a result). Or consider how Royal Dutch Shell was formed under guidance by the British secret services with Deterding (president of RDS) working for British intelligence to counter threats to Anglo oil dominationl. Or how it was Britain who created Iraq after WWI as the Middle East was carved up between the French and Bristish through various agreements. Or how the Anglo-Persian oil company staged a coup in Iran in the 1950's to change diplomatic rule in that country.

I can go on and on but the point is that all of these conspiracies changed history and caused suffering, death and destruction.

Am I just looking for someone to blame or am I just reacting to the facts? Facts that many people choose to ignore because they are perceived as 'conpsiracy theories'.

Just to counter what Mike said about the lack of 9/11 in the media, the film 'Loose Change' (a free film distributed world wide) has now been shown in Italy and Japan on prime time TV. It has also been in the top 10 of Google video for most of this year having been number 1 for several weeks. To repeat dr_doom's point, no one has had to buy this film or have it rammed down their throat.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The condemnation of any discussion about the outer political issues surrounding PO is wrong and I would ask people to stop. The consequences of PO are not just about energy!

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:36

All the producers of 9 11 documentaries quite clearly state, "we don't care if you
copy our dvds and don't pay us anything, we just care about more people learning the truth".
Hence quite often 9 11 truth campaigners will give dvds away to interested people for free.

Is this also true for Michael Moore?

Just a minor point - unless you are loaded, films cost money to produce. Personally I don't mind paying a reasonable amount for a film any more than I mind paying a reasonable amount for a good music CD. If it is quality, hard work has gone into it, and I don't mind rewarding that.

DVDs these days have copy protection so that they can't be copied. Interestingly, my copy of 'The End of Suburbia' has no such copy protection, so it is easily copied and re-distributed. I assume that this is a deliberate move by the film-makers to make it easily re-distributed.

GD · Post by GD » 22 Jun 2006, 11:07

Andy Hunt wrote:All the producers of 9 11 documentaries quite clearly state, "we don't care if you
copy our dvds and don't pay us anything, we just care about more people learning the truth".
Hence quite often 9 11 truth campaigners will give dvds away to interested people for free.

Is this also true for Michael Moore?

Sort of, he did say that for Fahrenheit 911:

Michael Moore wrote:I don't have a problem with people downloading the movie and sharing it with people as long as they're not trying to make a profit off my labour.

dr_doom · Post by **dr_doom** » 22 Jun 2006, 11:29

Is this also true for Michael Moore?

Just a minor point - unless you are loaded, films cost money to produce. Personally I don't mind paying a reasonable amount for a film any more than I mind paying a reasonable amount for a good music CD. If it is quality, hard work has gone into it, and I don't mind rewarding that.

DVDs these days have copy protection so that they can't be copied. Interestingly, my copy of 'The End of Suburbia' has no such copy protection, so it is easily copied and re-distributed. I assume that this is a deliberate move by the film-makers to make it easily re-distributed.

Michael Moore hasn't really done a great deal for either movements.

In his film he skims the surface on both issues and
deliberately omits anything that might really scare people.

He helps create the illusion that there is open-debate in mainstream media.

I feel the same way about rewarding people for their hard work.
If not just for the simple reason, that if they see its paid off,
they're more likely to produce subsequent releases.

The costs of producing a documentary film are mainly just the time involved.
If you are an amateur or a student time is an abundant commodity.

I'm all in favour of selling these DVDs by all means. But as a film-maker
if you passionately believed that the message was so important you would
make a similar statement about not minding about unauthorised copies.

It's common sense really. You're not going to stop unauthorised copying.
You may as well embrace it.

SILVERHARP2 · Post by **SILVERHARP2** » 22 Jun 2006, 13:42

I've read around the 911 theories but to be honest so what, in 10 years time if the "truth" hasn't come out then that is 10 years of wasted brain power/time, it reminds me of the "did NASA land on the moon", no grass movements will unearth the "truth", the bigger the conspiracy the less I believe any gov can keep it under raps so time will answer it one way or the other. All the world powers have at some time caused unrest in other countries, planted bombs, killed political leaders, again so what.

Bozzio · Post by **Bozzio** » 22 Jun 2006, 15:13

SILVERHARP2 wrote:I've read around the 911 theories but to be honest so what, in 10 years time if the "truth" hasn't come out then that is 10 years of wasted brain power/time, it reminds me of the "did NASA land on the moon", no grass movements will unearth the "truth", the bigger the conspiracy the less I believe any gov can keep it under raps so time will answer it one way or the other. All the world powers have at some time caused unrest in other countries, planted bombs, killed political leaders, again so what.

Terrorism, so what.
War, so what.
Politics, so what.
Peak oil, so what.

We can all say 'so what' to anything if it doesn't really interest us. I for one find the whining on the 'Fed Up' thread to be in poor taste and it definitely makes me want to say so what - "oh dear, I can't bear to wait any longer for PO to happen...I'm getting so fed up and depressed that the world isn't descending into chaos and war right now....How long will I have to wait, moan, moan, bloody moan!"

You can't please everyone all of the time. Who therefore has the right to ridicule and condemn those that do want to examine fringe PO topics, especially by critics who know virtually nothing about what is being discussed and why.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 22 Jun 2006, 15:50

We can all say 'so what' to anything if it doesn't really interest us. I for one find the whining on the 'Fed Up' thread to be in poor taste and it definitely makes me want to say so what - "oh dear, I can't bear to wait any longer for PO to happen...I'm getting so fed up and depressed that the world isn't descending into chaos and war right now....How long will I have to wait, moan, moan, bloody moan!"

This is very true!!! Who in their right mind wants to 'bring it on'?!

Then again, maybe a little energy crisis right now could wake up the world enough to start preparing for the troubles to come. A little preparation - psychological as much as anything - can make a huge difference to a population's reaction to a crisis.

I think if you take the 'anything is possible' attitude, it makes life very interesting! I suppose you could view personal truth as a balance of probabilities, and the more informed you are, the more likely you are to have a good grasp of what is actually going on.

Personally, I can quite easily believe that 9/11 was an 'inside job'. But then again, I have a suspicion that the Revelation of St John is correct, and that the end of this world, the beginning of the next and Peak Oil are intimately linked!

It takes all sorts, dunnit!

wayne72 · Post by **wayne72** » 23 Jun 2006, 03:20

Is this also true for Michael Moore?

Micheal Moore is all part of the big cover up. He's the perfect look with which conspiracy theorist can be related to.

Micheal Moore is making lots of money for himself and corporations whilst giving the right amount of info to make the mainstream diss "PO" and give him that cool image to PO/Conspiracy/Hippies etc. whilst he keeps making the corps the money.

Not sure if i've explained myself correct but some of you will understand what i'm trying to say.

newmac · Post by **newmac** » 23 Jun 2006, 08:45

Hello all. Seems to have become a bit of a debate going on here....so here are a few of my inputs.

Luckily I am in the position where I have watched about 4 9/11 conspiracy theory dvds and also read a lot of peak oil books...

There are a few fairly obvious reasons why conspiracy theories prove to be quite attractive:

1) Conpiracy theories allow the blame to be laid on the a few bad apples. This negates the need for people to look at their own involvment through their choice of lifestyle/society etc and hence their own personal responsibility - not many people in the western world are willing to admit to being little Eichmans.

2) As I elluded in a post that has got lost above - conspiracy theories simplify complex situations into something understandable. Our brians are not evolved to think in geological time or in large numbers - and its large numbers of factors that we are dealing with here. If we can come up with a simple explanation then so much the better.

3) Conspiracy is exciting and people like excitement.

4) Conspiracies are a "secret" and people like knowing secrets and telling people secrets.