I predict a riot!!!

[Ludwig]

To my mind this is a symptom of the long disenfrachisement of Britain's voters, especially the disengagement of youth from the political process. If they were more engaged, they'd be trashing Whitehall and Downing Street, and marching on Chipping Norton.

I think that 'disenfranchisement' is probably a bit of a weak term for what has happened; "sold down the river" might be nearer the mark. Who's got the proceeds of all that debt that's been taken out? Not them. Who's going to pay for all that debt? Them.

I'm sure that they don't understand it cognitively, but viscerally they do,

I don't think this is anything to do with being sold down the river, it's just the periodical bloodletting we get in our inner cities, which always gets worse in recessions.

I can understand the community's anger about the shooting of Duggan, but most people just join in a riot for the fun of it - hence the copycat riots that you always see.

Everybody's very quick to blame "our" bankers and "our" politicians but this is a global, systemic problem, and most of the people now self-righteously demanding the heads of bankers etc. were happy enough to take out mortgages with a view to a profit in their time.

It's a total waste of energy looking for someone to blame - this problem was built into capitalism at the start and anyone who thinks it's just the fault of "the bankers" is missing this fact.

Yeah, most people don't like to think they're just stuck with a problem and that there's no one they can make dig them out of it, but that's the situation we're in. People can scream all they like, they'll only make things worse for themselves in the long run.

[DominicJ]

From the Guardian's front page tomorrow is this paragraph:

IPCC Commissioner Rachel Cerfontyne met Duggan's relatives on Sunday. She said: "Speculation that Mark Duggan was 'assassinated' in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan's family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature."

Let's unpack that.
1. There is speculation that Duggan was 'executed' i.e. it was not the policeman acting in self defence against an armed man threatening him.
2. Cerfontyne says this is "categorically untrue".
3. She makes this statement before the Commission she heads has had time to investigate.
4. She claims that the family "know" that the execution allegation is untrue.
5. How can the family know anything?

Had Cerfontyne said that she would not jump to hasty conclusions and was awaiting the forensics report her position would have been credible. As it is one is reminded of Queen Gertrude, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... veals.html

He died from asingle gun shot wound to the chest.
Which sounds rather a lot like he was *NOT* assasinated via multiple gunshot wounds to the chest.

You say "not multiple gun shot wounds to the head" but there seems no dispute that Duggan was shot in the head with two police bullets fired by a policeman or men.

Well, the body appears to be disputing that fact, the body I said the family and IPCC comissioner have no doubt seen.

But hey, the lady doth protest too much, it was clear, the police dragged an innocent man from a car, forced him onto his knees and empited their weapons into his head, because thats what happens....

[mindscience]

Is it truly a global phenomenon, though, or is it more concentrated in countries where one would have enough time to think about riotting? In other words, poor countries like Bulgaria, Romania and the rest of Eastern Europe have youth which is already working, probably starving, some have probably left in search of a better life and/or future, have gone through 1000 procedures to be allowed to work as normal people in another country and obtain a valid work permit.

I can't seem to understand why the British youth and like the French youth, I suppose as well, are so angry? What is the purpose of a pointless riot against nothing? Surely, if there is an issue, there is a way to protest against it, like the Greeks do ever so successfully. But when it comes to mindless violence, why are people from more ordered, let's say, better countries, so angry? Is it the lack of time on their hands and minds, the lack of worry over what they will eat the following day, is it the more present identity and the desire to rebel against established society rules?

[Snail]

I can't seem to understand why the British youth and like the French youth, I suppose as well, are so angry? What is the purpose of a pointless riot against nothing? Surely, if there is an issue, there is a way to protest against it, like the Greeks do ever so successfully. But when it comes to mindless violence, why are people from more ordered, let's say, better countries, so angry? Is it the lack of time on their hands and minds, the lack of worry over what they will eat the following day, is it the more present identity and the desire to rebel against established society rules?

People can handle a fall of living standards in this country. As long as that fall is reflected throughout society. Unlike some other countries, there are substantial numbers and groups of people who are still living the high life: 2nd home, new car etc. These smug middle-classes are unwilling to compromise their living standards. They pat themselves on the back, and congratulate themselves on how hard they work. It's this that people can't handle and makes them so angry. And i can't blame them.

[biffvernon]

This is a good piece, partiucularly for being published in th eTelegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... s-out.html

[biffvernon]

He died from asingle gun shot wound to the chest.

Indeed. The inquest reveals the first falsehood from the early reports.

The part of my earlier post that you didn't quote was

Let's start off with accepting that we weren't there so it's all speculation based on others', mostly the police's, statements.

[featherstick]

Actually, I think this is one of the best articles on the riots that I've read, and pretty well expresses what I really think (apart from ignoring how close the middle class are to becoming the underclass):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... s-out.html

Catweazle, I'd rather see the opening of Young Permaculturists than Young Socialists, frankly, but that's another discussion.

[An Inspector Calls]

He died from asingle gun shot wound to the chest.

Indeed. The inquest reveals the first falsehood from the early reports.

The part of my earlier post that you didn't quote was

Let's start off with accepting that we weren't there so it's all speculation based on others', mostly the police's, statements.

What falsehood, in what early report(s)? Certainly not any falsehood in the IPCC statement I referenced earlier and which I now quote in full

Statement from IPCC on Mark Duggan shooting
Main Content
​7 August 2011
Statement from IPCC Commissioner Rachel Cerfontyne

I have spent most of today in Tottenham, meeting with members of the community, and I have just come from a meeting with members of Mark Duggan’s family.

The investigation in to the circumstances of Mark Duggan’s death must remain my priority. It is important however that I address some of the misinformation circling around – much of which is unhelpful, and some of which is inflammatory.

Mark Duggan’s family and the community in Tottenham need answers about what happened to him – and we will investigate independently, thoroughly and robustly so that we can give them answers. IPCC investigators were sent to the scene immediately. A number of exhibits including a non police firearm found at the scene and MPS radio have been sent for forensic testing. Yesterday we supported 14 members of Mark Duggan’s family and friends whilst they went through the difficult task of viewing and formally identifying Mr Duggan’s body.

The investigation is, and will remain my priority. As an IPCC Commissioner I cannot ever have worked for the police and am entirely independent of them. My role is to oversee the investigation – which must also support the family, and address the concerns expressed by the community. To help me I have established a community reference group to ensure I am sensitive and responsive to them.

I know there are concerns that we have not provided enough support to the family in the first days – and I am very sorry if anyone should feel that. Our investigators in fact made contact with the family on Friday, met them yesterday and I have met them today. I have spoken to Mark’s mother today who told me she did not want to meet yet but would do so in the coming days.

We are interviewing key witnesses although whilst the investigation is at such a critical stage I cannot give out further bits of information until we have proven what is fact and what is rumour. There are however a number of things I would like to address.

Speculation that Mark Duggan was ‘assassinated’ in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan’s family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature.

The IPCC is investigating not only the actions of the officer firing the shots but also the planning, decision making and implementation of the police operation. Our lines of enquiry include the bullets fired and any firearms used and recovered.

I remain in touch with Mr Duggan’s family and with community leaders with whom I met today and I join them in appealing for calm. The violence and disorder we have witnessed over the last 24 hours can never be acceptable.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Biff is actualy almost there.

The twitter-organised mass community clean up of the streets that is now proceeding gives a glimmer of hope for society.

I suspect that no one cleaned up anywhere other than their own street.

Probably no further that their bit of their own street.

[DominicJ]

Quite the opposite
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... rules.html

I realise it doesnt fit the "people against the cuts" meme that is accepted as dogma by most, but there we have it.

Looters are Scum.



AiC
According to Biffs earlier post, the denial by the IPCC comissioner, who had seen the body, and the denial by the family, who had also seen the body, was ample proof that a "hard working family"TM man had been brutaly assasinated by the police.....

[biffvernon]

I suspect that no one cleaned up anywhere other than their own street.

Probably no further that their bit of their own street.

I've no idea whether or not that is true but if it is then even residents taking responsibility for their own street sounds like the makings of a plan that could be useful in the future.

Even without riots, I pick up litter in my country lane.

(Dom, please stop the straw man arguments. They don't help anybody.)

[DominicJ]

From the Guardian's front page tomorrow is this paragraph:

IPCC Commissioner Rachel Cerfontyne met Duggan's relatives on Sunday. She said: "Speculation that Mark Duggan was 'assassinated' in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan's family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature."

Let's unpack that.
1. There is speculation that Duggan was 'executed' i.e. it was not the policeman acting in self defence against an armed man threatening him.
2. Cerfontyne says this is "categorically untrue".
3. She makes this statement before the Commission she heads has had time to investigate.
4. She claims that the family "know" that the execution allegation is untrue.
5. How can the family know anything?

Had Cerfontyne said that she would not jump to hasty conclusions and was awaiting the forensics report her position would have been credible. As it is one is reminded of Queen Gertrude, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

What strawman?
Are you saying you didnt say this?
Is it a different BiffVernon?

The body had no gun shot wounds to the head, yet you insisted that the family, who identified the biody, and the IPCC-C, who was almost certainly present, couldnt possibly know this...

Rather than just manning up and accepting you were wrong, you insist on continueing this farce.

[eatyourveg]

From the Guardian's front page tomorrow is this paragraph:

IPCC Commissioner Rachel Cerfontyne met Duggan's relatives on Sunday. She said: "Speculation that Mark Duggan was 'assassinated' in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan's family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature."

Let's unpack that.
1. There is speculation that Duggan was 'executed' i.e. it was not the policeman acting in self defence against an armed man threatening him.
2. Cerfontyne says this is "categorically untrue".
3. She makes this statement before the Commission she heads has had time to investigate.
4. She claims that the family "know" that the execution allegation is untrue.
5. How can the family know anything?

Had Cerfontyne said that she would not jump to hasty conclusions and was awaiting the forensics report her position would have been credible. As it is one is reminded of Queen Gertrude, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

What strawman?
Are you saying you didnt say this?
Is it a different BiffVernon?

The body had no gun shot wounds to the head, yet you insisted that the family, who identified the biody, and the IPCC-C, who was almost certainly present, couldnt possibly know this...

Rather than just manning up and accepting you were wrong, you insist on continueing this farce.

A bit like you did in this thread Dom? Pot, kettle.....
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... hp?t=18967

[biffvernon]

What strawman?
Are you saying you didnt say this?
Is it a different BiffVernon?

The body had no gun shot wounds to the head, yet you insisted that the family, who identified the biody, and the IPCC-C, who was almost certainly present, couldnt possibly know this...

No Dom, that is not what I said. Of course it would be obvious to anyone looking at the body whether or not it had been shot in the head. Yours is a strawman.

Anyway, we now learn that Duggan was killed by a shot fired by a policeman into his chest. The policeman fired two shot, the other hitting him in the biceps. The IPCC have confirmed that the bullet in the radio is police issue and could not confirm that the handgun found at the scene had been fired and did not have evidence that Duggan had fired a shot. The Guardian report on Saturday now appears to be confirmed by the police.

There is no evidence Mark Duggan opened fire at police before being shot dead by a firearms officer, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

[An Inspector Calls]

The original strawman is all yours with

5. How can the family know anything?

Had Cerfontyne said that she would not jump to hasty conclusions and was awaiting the forensics report her position would have been credible. As it is one is reminded of Queen Gertrude, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

Cerfontyne's IPCC statement, quoted in full above, makes it very, very clear that the IPCC is not jumping to any conclusions but conducting a measured investigation.

Cerfontyne's statement also makes it abundantly clear how the family might have lnown quite a lot more than us - she'd had a meeting with the family and met Duggan's mother.