Moderator: Peak Moderation
From what I know of UE, I can't imagine anyone further from the systemmr brightside wrote: I see. I thought i was sensing some dispair in general on the thread which is what made me ask, i'm not trying to be a bigot or anything. Are you sure that you're not just too much a part of the system which you fear is about to collapse? If you evaporated from it a bit things might not be so gloomy.
I suspect it's his removal from the system which allows him to be so gloomy.
Ludwig hit the nail on the head. Psychologically and in terms of where I am in my life, I'm about as detached from the system as it is possible to be. I don't really fear the collapse. I hate the system, think it is coming down anyway and part of me might even be looking forward to it. I don't have a normal job and have no hope of ever getting one. I don't have kids and won't have any in the future. I don't trust the banks so I convert my cash in precious metals. I'm on the side of the rest of the ecosystem and think the human race pretty much deserves what is about to happen to it.mr brightside wrote: Are you sure that you're not just too much a part of the system which you fear is about to collapse? If you evaporated from it a bit things might not be so gloomy.
From my perspective, I live in the real world and 99% of the rest of the human race, or at least of those living in the developed world, live in an insane fantasy/nightmare. Maybe I'm just arrogant or insane myself, but I don't think so.Having long laid waste our own sanity, and having long forgotten what it feels like to be free, most of us too have no idea what it’s like to live in the real world. Seeing four salmon spawn causes me to burst into tears. I have never seen a river full of fish. I have never seen a sky darkened for days by a single flock of birds. (I have, however, seen skies perpetually darkened by smog.) As with freedom, so too the extraordinary beauty and fecundity of the world itself: It’s hard to love something you’ve never known. It’s hard to convince yourself to fight forsomething you may not believe has ever existed.
--from Endgame, Volume I
I fear it but I accept it. I don't fear it in the abstract; indeed it will be grimly enthralling when you watch it on the news before the wave of destruction finally reaches your own door.UndercoverElephant wrote:Ludwig hit the nail on the head. Psychologically and in terms of where I am in my life, I'm about as detached from the system as it is possible to be. I don't really fear the collapse.mr brightside wrote: Are you sure that you're not just too much a part of the system which you fear is about to collapse? If you evaporated from it a bit things might not be so gloomy.
I have a normal job and would be stuck without an income. I find it's easy to be pflegmatic about collapse when you're comfortable in the present. My recent periods of unemployment reminded just how bloody stressful it is to face the prospect of soon having no money, let alone actually having no money.I hate the system, think it is coming down anyway and part of me might even be looking forward to it. I don't have a normal job and have no hope of ever getting one. I don't have kids and won't have any in the future.
The issue of collective guilt is interesting. For whatever reason, we regard guilt as an individual thing, and that is why most educated people reject the idea of a deity. If God were just, why does He punish innocent individuals? But I think in a weird way sometimes the innocent have to pay the debts of the guilty because in an elusive way they are psychologically bound with them - one might invoke Jung's collective unconscious, a thing I am convinced exists. "The sins of the fathers shall be visited on the children."I don't trust the banks so I convert my cash in precious metals. I'm on the side of the rest of the ecosystem and think the human race pretty much deserves what is about to happen to it.
That does not mean that individual human beings deserve what is going to happen to them (although some do). I'm talking collectively. As humans, we've allocated ourselves the right to do whatever we like to the rest of the ecosystem, but rights normally come with responsibilities and in that respect we have completely failed.
Nobody wants to die horribly, but there was always going to be a possibility of that happening, collapse or no collapse.Ludwig wrote:
But when you think you are about to die violently, the body's reaction of uncontrollable terror is probably as horrific as any actual physical pain. I have sufficient imagination to fear the process of dying... As for death itself, I don't know...
No, it's not a nice prospect. But there's not much I can do about it.I have a normal job and would be stuck without an income. I find it's easy to be pflegmatic about collapse when you're comfortable in the present. My recent periods of unemployment reminded just how bloody stressful it is to face the prospect of soon having no money, let alone actually having no money.
No, not everyone...The issue of collective guilt is interesting. For whatever reason, we regard guilt as an individual thing, and that is why most educated people reject the idea of a deity. If God were just, why does He punish innocent individuals? But I think in a weird way sometimes the innocent have to pay the debts of the guilty because in an elusive way they are psychologically bound with them - one might invoke Jung's collective unconscious, a thing I am convinced exists. "The sins of the fathers shall be visited on the children."I don't trust the banks so I convert my cash in precious metals. I'm on the side of the rest of the ecosystem and think the human race pretty much deserves what is about to happen to it.
That does not mean that individual human beings deserve what is going to happen to them (although some do). I'm talking collectively. As humans, we've allocated ourselves the right to do whatever we like to the rest of the ecosystem, but rights normally come with responsibilities and in that respect we have completely failed.
That idea also makes sense of an idea that puzzled me for a long while - the idea that Christ "died for our sins". He assumed the mantle of guilt of the whole of humanity - it's in accepting punishment, even on others' behalf, that one is purified.
Of course not everyone sees things that way.
I don't know if "brave" is the right word... I do know that once you've completely swallowed the pill, there is no going back.maudibe wrote:+1 UE - I totally get where you are going on this. Unfortunately I am not brave enough to completely swallow the 'right' pill as you have.
I reckon most people could empathise with that notion.
Understood. Perhaps my assumption that everyone on this forum bar me was either an oil baron or in economics was false!UndercoverElephant wrote:Ludwig hit the nail on the head. Psychologically and in terms of where I am in my life, I'm about as detached from the system as it is possible to be. I don't really fear the collapse. I hate the system, think it is coming down anyway and part of me might even be looking forward to it. I don't have a normal job and have no hope of ever getting one. I don't have kids and won't have any in the future. I don't trust the banks so I convert my cash in precious metals. I'm on the side of the rest of the ecosystem and think the human race pretty much deserves what is about to happen to it.
That does not mean that individual human beings deserve what is going to happen to them (although some do). I'm talking collectively. As humans, we've allocated ourselves the right to do whatever we like to the rest of the ecosystem, but rights normally come with responsibilities and in that respect we have completely failed.
If I could just press a button now and bring down civilisation, I'd press it.
From my perspective, I live in the real world and 99% of the rest of the human race, or at least of those living in the developed world, live in an insane fantasy/nightmare. Maybe I'm just arrogant or insane myself, but I don't think so.
I've always lived by the rule that if you've got a trade you'll be ok. I have no wish to contribute to the population whatsoever, the pitter-patter of tiny feet would only mean i've crippled the gene pool by passing on my family's hereditary illnesses and i can't live with that. If civilisation goes sideways there'll still be machines somewhere that need fixing, and i'll be there fixing them.Ludwig wrote:I have a normal job and would be stuck without an income. I find it's easy to be pflegmatic about collapse when you're comfortable in the present. My recent periods of unemployment reminded just how bloody stressful it is to face the prospect of soon having no money, let alone actually having no money.
There's all sorts here.mr brightside wrote: Understood. Perhaps my assumption that everyone on this forum bar me was either and oil baron or in economics was false!
I think what you are missing here is that when the "general public" finally wake up to how much trouble we're actually in, they will indeed revert to self-preservation mode, but that this will not lead to an overall greater amount of co-operation. During economic hard times, people don't generally get nicer to each other. There's no solution where everybody wins - not if you take political reality and human psychology into account. What is much more likely is an upsurge in right-wing nationalism.I spoke to someone tonight, let's call him Old Dave Wise-old-bloke, who thinks you are right on the money with your End of the World theory. I can't seem to get my head around the idea of such a catastrophic outcome. At some point the human race as a collective should revert to self-preservation mode and do what has to be done to stabilise our civilisation for the future. Or am i missing the elephant in the corner- that those with power and influence will save themselves and sail the rest of us over the edge of Niagra Falls?
Yes, there will be a lot more fixing and a lot less throwing away.mr brightside wrote:I've always lived by the rule that if you've got a trade you'll be ok. I have no wish to contribute to the population whatsoever, the pitter-patter of tiny feet would only mean i've crippled the gene pool by passing on my family's hereditary illnesses and i can't live with that. If civilisation goes sideways there'll still be machines somewhere that need fixing, and i'll be there fixing them.Ludwig wrote:I have a normal job and would be stuck without an income. I find it's easy to be pflegmatic about collapse when you're comfortable in the present. My recent periods of unemployment reminded just how bloody stressful it is to face the prospect of soon having no money, let alone actually having no money.
What I fear most is fear. I have experienced paralysing, sickening fear for a couple of periods in my life, each lasting several weeks, and I find it hard to imagine any physical torment that would be worse.UndercoverElephant wrote:Nobody wants to die horribly, but there was always going to be a possibility of that happening, collapse or no collapse.Ludwig wrote:
But when you think you are about to die violently, the body's reaction of uncontrollable terror is probably as horrific as any actual physical pain. I have sufficient imagination to fear the process of dying... As for death itself, I don't know...
I'll probably die of liver failure anyway. What I fear the most is losing my mind - dementia.
This is the crux of the matter. Being nice to each other means everybody goes down together. Fighting means some people pull through. It's a chilling thing to consider, but it's true and well-attested from other collapsing civilisations.UndercoverElephant wrote:There's no solution where everybody wins - not if you take political reality and human psychology into account.
That, in my opinion, is what will happen. We're already seeing the start of it in America, with the right wing wanting the US to default on its debt and effectively abolish its own government.mr brightside wrote:
Understood. Perhaps my assumption that everyone on this forum bar me was either an oil baron or in economics was false!
I spoke to someone tonight, let's call him Old Dave Wise-old-bloke, who thinks you are right on the money with your End of the World theory. I can't seem to get my head around the idea of such a catastrophic outcome. At some point the human race as a collective should revert to self-preservation mode and do what has to be done to stabilise our civilisation for the future. Or am i missing the elephant in the corner- that those with power and influence will save themselves and sail the rest of us over the edge of Niagra Falls?
