Should the troll be banned?

[emordnilap]

Buy One, Get One For Free.

[mr brightside]

But tell you what, just to make a ban on RGR really attractive:

He goes, I go.

Why fall on your sword Inspector?

[ujoni08]

I think the extent of this is much bigger than we thought. He's everywhere, and in multiple guises, with the same agenda:

http://www.theoilage.com/lashay-steve-r ... 97-20.html

'POM questioned the motivation of RGR, et. al., and I can only guess, but I'd say their long game is to make us question what we know'.

http://www.theoilage.com/attacked-by-re ... t2140.html

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... 1034c54a1f

RGR wrote: 'You Brits have treated me pretty reasonable compared to those wanker Americans though....'

http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... rowth.html

http://www.malthusia.com/viewtopic.php? ... 25&start=0

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=58667.90

http://www.hubberts-arms.org/index.php?topic=81.0

http://peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/200 ... diary.html

http://peakoilcult.blogspot.com/

there are no members yet

http://www.iseof.org/~europe/node/6765

http://energyandourfuture.org/~campfire/node/6626

http://www.icyte.com/system/snapshots/f ... index.html

reservegrowthrulz2 wrote: 'While many articles around here seem to have the feel of someone out of their depth on the given issue, knowing nothing about the topic and just trying to relay what they think they know second hand and trying to keep from being blatantly ignorant, (let alone understand the topic), I couldn't find a single incorrect statement, piece of jargon, misplaced statement, bad conclusion or assumption in the entire thing.

These are the kind of people who hopefully will sort out what was, or was not, best industry practice, and hopefully the vigilante's can wait until these experts have had their say on the matter before making up their own ridiculous conclusions'.

http://malthusia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=183

'Look up posts from KillTheHumans. Same guy, different handle.

I used to catch RGR's stuff here and there in comment sections for op ed pieces and the like'.

Then there are a few dead sites, with a little text left in Google to give the game away:

Someone Let RGR Out of His Cage Again
www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php?topic=6740.15
20 posts - 11 authors - Last post: 28 Aug 2007
I accused PONow and We'reToast as all really being ReserveGrowthRules and then suddenly and magically RGR appeared. ...

Student loans really are Ridiculous
dennisfromoregon.com/forum/index.php?topic=279.25;wap2 - Cached
ReserveGrowthRules, are you sure you've joined the right blog? This blog pretty much represents that which you dismiss. Even your name, RGR, sounds like you ...

Peak Oil Apocalypse is a bunch of phooey! : Welcome - Page 12 ...
www.peakoil.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11... - United States - Cached
15 posts - 6 authors - Last post: 23 Jun 2007
I have this feeling your not reservegrowthrules as pstarr implied, simply because he was never that funny. On the other hand Praisedoom, ...

Thread Anyone know this RGR fella? | Peak Oil News and Message ...
boardreader.com/.../Anyone_know_this_RGR_fella_7n0eXhn6.htm... - Cached
5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: 14 Aug 2006
Somebody has been leaving, umm, a trail of comments on my blog. Usually nearly nobody bothers with my blogging platform's "anti-spam ...

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If he's been paid for all this, he must be doing rather well...

Jon

[Ludwig]

If he's been paid for all this, he must be doing rather well...

Jon

At 5-15 cents per post, I'm not surprised he keeps busy. I'm also not surprised he keeps repeating himself.

(http://www.earn.onlinewebmarket.net/pai ... ey-online/)

I'm largely convinced that this is what RGR does for a living, whether as a pay-per-post member of the public or an in-house disinformation dude of some corp or government body.

It would explain the frequency of his posts, his disingenuous arguments, his ubiquity on Peak Oil forums, his self-repetition, and the fact that he's prepared to keep arguing the toss with people past the point where most would have died of boredom.

The possibility has been brought up several times that RGR is paid to "debunk" Peak Oil, and as far as I know he has never denied it. In fact this very thread is remarkable for his absence, don't you think?

[ujoni08]

Ludwig, agreed wholeheartedly.
Jon

[UndercoverElephant]

If he's been paid for all this, he must be doing rather well...

Jon

At 5-15 cents per post, I'm not surprised he keeps busy. I'm also not surprised he keeps repeating himself.

(http://www.earn.onlinewebmarket.net/pai ... ey-online/)

I'm largely convinced that this is what RGR does for a living, whether as a pay-per-post member of the public or an in-house disinformation dude of some corp or government body.

It would explain the frequency of his posts, his disingenuous arguments, his ubiquity on Peak Oil forums, his self-repetition, and the fact that he's prepared to keep arguing the toss with people past the point where most would have died of boredom.

The possibility has been brought up several times that RGR is paid to "debunk" Peak Oil, and as far as I know he has never denied it. In fact this very thread is remarkable for his absence, don't you think?

I'm absolutely convinced this is the case.

[Ludwig]

If he's been paid for all this, he must be doing rather well...

Jon

At 5-15 cents per post, I'm not surprised he keeps busy. I'm also not surprised he keeps repeating himself.

(http://www.earn.onlinewebmarket.net/pai ... ey-online/)

I'm largely convinced that this is what RGR does for a living, whether as a pay-per-post member of the public or an in-house disinformation dude of some corp or government body.

I'm absolutely convinced this is the case.

After much deliberation, I voted for a ban. I really don't agree with banning people merely for disagreeing with majority opinion, but from the number of people threatening to leave, it does seem that he's close to destroying the forum. PS wouldn't be PS if it weren't so tolerant of dissent, but RGR is exploiting this tolerance.

As I said, I personally don't mind RGR's presence, but if he is putting off so many other people whose contributions I like to read, I would rather he went.

[Bandidoz]

The possibility has been brought up several times that RGR is paid to "debunk" Peak Oil, and as far as I know he has never denied it. In fact this very thread is remarkable for his absence, don't you think?

Not wanting to appear to be appeasing him, but:

a) RGR has always stated that PO will eventually be a reality and that depletion is a matter of fact. What he argues (too much) against is the "OMG it's going to be a disaster" mentality that often accompanies it (e.g. LATOC). I always thought that "peakoildebunked" was a bit of a misnomer; he does *not* come out with the "it's all a conspiracy theory to limit our freedoms" or Abiotic nonsense (AFAIK).

b) He's aware of this discussion and has informed us he's staying off the forum for a week or so whilst we decide what to do.

c) You say he's bad for responding to critiscism of him one minute, but then say he's bad for not responding the next. Rather fickle don't you think?

I reiterate, Admins are discussing this matter.

[Ludwig]

c) You say he's bad for responding to critiscism of him one minute, but then say he's bad for not responding the next. Rather fickle don't you think?

I never said either of those things.

I do not think RGR is either good or bad, I was merely speculating about his motives. It's his prerogative not to clarify once and for all whether he's paid to post here.

I believe RGR is disruptive, and deliberately so. I can't prove this, it's just a hunch; and I appreciate that it's difficult to justify a ban on a hunch.

[UndercoverElephant]

At 5-15 cents per post, I'm not surprised he keeps busy. I'm also not surprised he keeps repeating himself.

(http://www.earn.onlinewebmarket.net/pai ... ey-online/)

I'm largely convinced that this is what RGR does for a living, whether as a pay-per-post member of the public or an in-house disinformation dude of some corp or government body.

I'm absolutely convinced this is the case.

After much deliberation, I voted for a ban. I really don't agree with banning people merely for disagreeing with majority opinion, but from the number of people threatening to leave, it does seem that he's close to destroying the forum. PS wouldn't be PS if it weren't so tolerant of dissent, but RGR is exploiting this tolerance.

As I said, I personally don't mind RGR's presence, but if he is putting off so many other people whose contributions I like to read, I would rather he went.

It runs deeper than that for me. It's about an attempt by the operators of The System to undermine the power of the internet. The internet has fundamentally altered the balance of power between the operators and the public. For the whole of human history, power has been intricately linked to control of information: he who controls the information holds the power. If anyone doesn't believe this, just look at Rupert Murdoch - or the history of the Catholic church. The internet drove a coach and horses through that status quo - millions, then billions, of people can now interact with other like-minded souls from all over the world and nobody is in control of the flow of information. That means that places like PowerSwitch can exist, and that they allow ordinary, normally-powerless people to influence what is happening in the world in ways that they never could have before, and which present a direct threat to the operators.

"Astroturfing" is their response to this situation. They pay people like RGR to pretend to be impartial third parties. They pay him to pose as normal member of the public and post on boards like this in order to distort the picture of what is going on at the "grass roots" level on the internet. I believe that people need to be far more aware of these practices, and apply a zero-tolerance response to it. The problem is proving that a particular individual is an astroturfer, but in this particular case I don't think there is much room for doubt. RGR is a textbook example. PowerSwitch is also a prime example of the sort of place that is likely to be targeted by astroturfers of the more political variety. Just because this is a small board in terms of the number of regular posters, it doesn't mean it is not important in terms of influencing public opinion - at least amongst the class of people who take the internet seriously as a source of information. We ought to be expecting astroturfers to post here. MacG was also a textbook example, IMO.

[Ludwig]

It runs deeper than that for me. It's about an attempt by the operators of The System to undermine the power of the internet. The internet has fundamentally altered the balance of power between the operators and the public. For the whole of human history, power has been intricately linked to control of information: he who controls the information holds the power.

I completely agree, and that's why I tend to the conspiratorial view of government and corporate behaviour.

If anyone doesn't believe this, just look at Rupert Murdoch - or the history of the Catholic church. The internet drove a coach and horses through that status quo - millions, then billions, of people can now interact with other like-minded souls from all over the world and nobody is in control of the flow of information. That means that places like PowerSwitch can exist, and that they allow ordinary, normally-powerless people to influence what is happening in the world in ways that they never could have before, and which present a direct threat to the operators.

I don't believe we can really influence a thing, to be honest. PowerSwitchers are not representative of the population at large, and they are saying things that the population at large doesn't want to hear.

TPTB could close down sites like this if they got to be a real threat. I think the day is not far off when Internet censorship will arrive, probably in the wake of more "terrorist" attacks. Sure, dissenters will keep popping up, but they will have a harder and harder time, and eventually only the real kamikazes will be left, with few daring in public to agree with them.

"Astroturfing" is their response to this situation. They pay people like RGR to pretend to be impartial third parties. They pay him to pose as normal member of the public and post on boards like this in order to distort the picture of what is going on at the "grass roots" level on the internet. I believe that people need to be far more aware of these practices, and apply a zero-tolerance response to it. The problem is proving that a particular individual is an astroturfer, but in this particular case I don't think there is much room for doubt. RGR is a textbook example. PowerSwitch is also a prime example of the sort of place that is likely to be targeted by astroturfers of the more political variety. Just because this is a small board in terms of the number of regular posters, it doesn't mean it is not important in terms of influencing public opinion - at least amongst the class of people who take the internet seriously as a source of information. We ought to be expecting astroturfers to post here. MacG was also a textbook example, IMO.

Interesting points and I agree. RGR knows that the admins will feel bad about banning someone who isn't totally dislikable, but the circumstantial evidence is abundant that he is not what he claims to be.

Was MacG banned?

[biffvernon]

And the other on gives yet another example of his destructive behaviour at http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... 052#185052

[PS_RalphW]

Astroturfing does go on. Is RGR astroturfing or entirely self motivated? I have no idea. I wouldn't even want to put a probability on it.

On second thoughts, I don't think he is, because he posts across many sites using the same identity, over about 6 years. He predates commercial astroturfing. He is not all that prolific, except here at powerswitch.

I guess he is more or less what he claims to be, somehow in the oil business, probably technically educated.

He is also a major disruption, he clearly loves winding people up, to the point where they lose their rationality in their posting.

I do suspect he does this deliberately, because he wants sites like this to lose credibility. He may even feel he is doing a service to science and rationality, but somehow I doubt it. He is just playing.

[ujoni08]

Excellent comments from both UE and Ludwig.

[UndercoverElephant]

TPTB could close down sites like this if they got to be a real threat.

Not until after things have already got really serious.

I think the day is not far off when Internet censorship will arrive, probably in the wake of more "terrorist" attacks. Sure, dissenters will keep popping up, but they will have a harder and harder time, and eventually only the real kamikazes will be left, with few daring in public to agree with them.

I don't agree. TPTB would like nothing more than the power to censor the internet, but it isn't possible. The internet is a distributed system, and nobody controls all of it.

Was MacG banned?

No. He was found out as being totally ignorant of climate science after having claimed to be a climate science expert. I asked him whether he believe the greenhouse effect existed in the atmosphere of Venus. He responded by saying he doubted this very much, because Venus was very bright. This demonstrated to anyone with even the most rudimentary understanding of the relevant science that MacG didn't have the remotest idea what he was talking about, and I think even he realised this. He stopped posting.

For anyone who doesn't know, Venus appears very bright to us because it is very close to the Earth and because it is always completely covered in white clouds. It was the discovery of the greenhouse effect on Venus that prompted serious scientific interest in the possibility of a greenhouse effect closer to home.