Ill get my coat!

[Ludwig]

I've said this before, but what depresses me most is not so much the prospect of dying, as the fact that while the going was good, my life was so shit.

You have to try to see the funny side of it, Ludwig. Yes, it is unbelievably depressing and rather lonely if you've got a clear picture of what is likely to happen in the coming years, but don't you at times look at it all and just laugh at sheer insanity of the thing?

No, not really. But then, other shit in my life means that I never feel like laughing about anything.

If the option were available to me, I'd have been spending these last years of BAU having a wild and crazy time and doing the things I always wanted. But I am hindered by this and that and all that's left is depression and regret.

[Lord Beria3]

Sorry to hear that Ludwig.

I have come to find greater pleasure in the things in life others take for granted as the reality of PO has sunk in over the years.

I very much try to see the half-full way of life and value friendships and family because at the end of the day, this is what will give you a happy life.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Why try to be optimistic? What's the point? The only sort of optimism I can manage is the hope that Gaia will fight back and the main burst of human dieoff will be swift.

You are a funny hippy.


Gaia.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

I got 30 seconds in before it was blindingly apparent that this video was only going to present one side of a multifaceted problem.

I figure that's about 20 minutes saved then

Ok You lost me, its a synopsis of interviews of 'Noam Chomsky, Bill McKibben, Thom Hartman, Richard Heinberg, Jim Howard Kunstler, Dimitry Orlov, Jean Laharrere, Nicole Foss and Greg Palast linked to the full interviews that comment on the spectrom of Peak oil, Economic collapse, and climate change, How is that not multifacited enough?

My point was just that they all see only doom and disaster. Where was the alternate opinion of hope? Where was the possibility that climate change might do some good? Where was the idea that running out of oil might spur us on to better lives lived with less pollution and more love?

One sided and gloomy. Typical of people who see their own species as some sort of invasive virus, fit only for destruction.

[UndercoverElephant]

I got 30 seconds in before it was blindingly apparent that this video was only going to present one side of a multifaceted problem.

I figure that's about 20 minutes saved then

Ok You lost me, its a synopsis of interviews of 'Noam Chomsky, Bill McKibben, Thom Hartman, Richard Heinberg, Jim Howard Kunstler, Dimitry Orlov, Jean Laharrere, Nicole Foss and Greg Palast linked to the full interviews that comment on the spectrom of Peak oil, Economic collapse, and climate change, How is that not multifacited enough?

My point was just that they all see only doom and disaster. Where was the alternate opinion of hope?

We trade in reality on this board.

Where was the possibility that climate change might do some good?

How can climate change do some good?

Where was the idea that running out of oil might spur us on to better lives lived with less pollution and more love?

We trade in reality on this board.

One sided and gloomy. Typical of people who see their own species as some sort of invasive virus, fit only for destruction.

Not quite, but close enough. It is not "one sided" to believe that the human race is heading towards some sort of major catastrophe. The writing is on the wall in giant flashing day-glo letters.

[UndercoverElephant]

Why try to be optimistic? What's the point? The only sort of optimism I can manage is the hope that Gaia will fight back and the main burst of human dieoff will be swift.

You are a funny hippy.

Gaia.

James Lovelock has been repeatedly humiliated for suggesting things that most people find unbelievable. He's not a hippy. He's a first-rate polymath, scientist and inventor and he usually ends up being proved right.

Gaia theory is a scientific theory, not a metaphysical theory. A lot of people do not seem to realise this.

[UndercoverElephant]

I've said this before, but what depresses me most is not so much the prospect of dying, as the fact that while the going was good, my life was so shit.

You have to try to see the funny side of it, Ludwig. Yes, it is unbelievably depressing and rather lonely if you've got a clear picture of what is likely to happen in the coming years, but don't you at times look at it all and just laugh at sheer insanity of the thing?

No, not really. But then, other shit in my life means that I never feel like laughing about anything.

If the option were available to me, I'd have been spending these last years of BAU having a wild and crazy time and doing the things I always wanted. But I am hindered by this and that and all that's left is depression and regret.

Regrets? I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention...

You don't know how life would have turned out if you'd done things differently. I think part of you still mourns the loss of BAU and the chance to live a "normal life." It wasn't to be, so you might as well sit back and enjoy the show. Just thank your lucky stars you don't have three kids, an enormous mortgage and no job security.

[Ludwig]

My point was just that they all see only doom and disaster. Where was the alternate opinion of hope? Where was the possibility that climate change might do some good? Where was the idea that running out of oil might spur us on to better lives lived with less pollution and more love?

One sided and gloomy. Typical of people who see their own species as some sort of invasive virus, fit only for destruction.

All opinions are one-sided, aren't they? How can they be anything else?

Almost certainly, locals just before the collapses of the Easter Island and Mayan civilisations were saying exactly the same things as you are now.

I don't see how anyone with a sense of history and an understanding of human nature can be optimistic about where we're heading. (By "a sense of history", I don't mean knowing a stupendous number of facts, I mean a feel for historical processes.)

Sure, those of us who see doom ahead are no doubt gloomier people than average. That's what seeing things clearly tends to do to you (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism).

[Ludwig]

You don't know how life would have turned out if you'd done things differently.

"Regret" is perhaps the wrong word. I tend to believe that none of us have as much control over our lives as we like to think; some people are simply luckier than others, and they mistake their luck for the consequence of virtue and good judgment.

I've tried very hard throughout my life, and on the whole in good faith, to address the things in my circumstances and my personality that were holding me back.

So it's not regret, but more a sense of "things that might have been", of unfulfilled personal potential.

More painful than a state of permanent lethargic depression is the intimation of a joy that was always thwarted.

I've no reason to complain, I can see that objectively, especially when I think about the lives the younger generations are likely to have. What about their unfulfilled potential?

But that kind of objective assessment doesn't actually make you any happier. In fact it just makes you feel guilty for being unhappy

I think part of you still mourns the loss of BAU and the chance to live a "normal life."

Not really just that. I'm not materialistic, and I never wanted to settle down with kids. In fact one of the reasons I've always been an outsider is that I looked at all the people with cosy conventional lives, and realised that to live like that would bore me rigid.

But unlike most people here, I suspect life isn't simply going to get more difficult, it's going to be f***ing miserable and f***ing terrifying and quite probably f***ing short.

It wasn't to be, so you might as well sit back and enjoy the show. Just thank your lucky stars you don't have three kids, an enormous mortgage and no job security.

My mortgage is plenty big enough to be a worry, and I certainly don't have job security (does anyone?). But as for kids, sure, given my temperament, I'd be absolutely sick with worry if I'd had a family. Small mercies.

[UndercoverElephant]

My point was just that they all see only doom and disaster. Where was the alternate opinion of hope? Where was the possibility that climate change might do some good? Where was the idea that running out of oil might spur us on to better lives lived with less pollution and more love?

One sided and gloomy. Typical of people who see their own species as some sort of invasive virus, fit only for destruction.

All opinions are one-sided, aren't they? How can they be anything else?

Almost certainly, locals just before the collapses of the Easter Island and Mayan civilisations were saying exactly the same things as you are now.

Highly unlikely, given that the view of humans as an invasive virus is a product of 20th century science and politics.

I think the Easter Islanders knew they were in trouble long before it got really nasty. Why do you think they built those statues?

Sure, those of us who see doom ahead are no doubt gloomier people than average. That's what seeing things clearly tends to do to you (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism).

I don't think many of the people still deeply lost in illusion are actually very happy either. There's no shortage of people who are depressed and/or have turned to drugs of one sort or another. Different sort of depression maybe, but it still sucks.

[UndercoverElephant]

But unlike most people here, I suspect life isn't simply going to get more difficult, it's going to be f***ing miserable and f***ing terrifying and quite probably f***ing short.

I suspect quite a few people here wouldn't disagree too much with that. I still think you need to try to enjoy the show. We are about to witness what will be the biggest train wreck in human history, and you have a box seat. Will you get no pleasure at all from watching the RGR's and JSD's of this world trying to get their heads around what is happening? No sense of satisfaction when you hear Jeremy Paxman ask somebody "this is really the end of the world as we know it, isn't it?", or words to that effect?

I'm 43. My life is already far from short compared to most humans who have ever lived.

It wasn't to be, so you might as well sit back and enjoy the show. Just thank your lucky stars you don't have three kids, an enormous mortgage and no job security.

My mortgage is plenty big enough to be a worry, and I certainly don't have job security (does anyone?). But as for kids, sure, given my temperament, I'd be absolutely sick with worry if I'd had a family. Small mercies.

Bored with life. Didn't succeed. Thank the Lord. For small mercies....

[Ludwig]

I think the Easter Islanders knew they were in trouble long before it got really nasty. Why do you think they built those statues?

From what Jared Diamond writes, the statue-building seems to have been a manifestation of (relatively) friendly tribal rivalry in the period before the collapse. IIRC the statues got bigger and bigger over time... then suddenly the quarry was abandoned (there was actually only one quarry: it seems that the tribes made agreements with each other for access to land; no doubt their prior interdependence made the collapse all the more disastrous).
There are haunting photos in the book of half-carved statues still stuck in the hillside.

Similarly with the Mayans: their temples got bigger and bigger, as chiefs vied with each other for prestige.

There always seems to be the same trajectory: more and more profligate use of more and more precious resources...

[UndercoverElephant]

I think the Easter Islanders knew they were in trouble long before it got really nasty. Why do you think they built those statues?

From what Jared Diamond writes, the statue-building seems to have been a manifestation of (relatively) friendly tribal rivalry in the period before the collapse. IIRC the statues got bigger and bigger over time... then suddenly the quarry was abandoned (there was actually only one quarry: it seems that the tribes made agreements with each other for access to land; no doubt their prior interdependence made the collapse all the more disastrous).
There are haunting photos in the book of half-carved statues still stuck in the hillside.

Similarly with the Mayans: their temples got bigger and bigger, as chiefs vied with each other for prestige.

There always seems to be the same trajectory: more and more profligate use of more and more precious resources...

I know what you are saying...

I was really referring to the artistic nature of the statues themselves - great wide-eyed faces staring inland. Humans are not supposed to live on tiny islands cut off from the rest of the world by thousands of miles of barren ocean. It must always have been a bit weird.

[Ludwig]

I suspect quite a few people here wouldn't disagree too much with that. I still think you need to try to enjoy the show. We are about to witness what will be the biggest train wreck in human history, and you have a box seat. Will you get no pleasure at all from watching the RGR's and JSD's of this world trying to get their heads around what is happening? No sense of satisfaction when you hear Jeremy Paxman ask somebody "this is really the end of the world as we know it, isn't it?", or words to that effect?

No, not at all. But then I'm not really angry at the human race, or the Establishment. I don't feel angry with the bankers, or even with the US Neocons. Sure, I despise them, but that's not the same thing.

The reason I'm not angry is that I think these things simply have to come to pass. Human nature and destiny are what they are.

One of the most powerful novels I've read is "One Hundred Years of Solitude". It's basically a condensed, macrocosmic vision of the story of civilisation. And it ends by everything being swept away in a terrible, Biblical-style tempest, while one of the last survivors, a mystic, sits deciphering a sacred text.

(Sorry for the spoilers!)

The detail of the sacred text, I feel, was an indication of profound insight. One way or another I think humanity is soon to understand its spiritual destiny. Whether it constitutes "salvation" or not, I don't know. On one level, I actually think it probably does. (I think of King Lear, who experiences ruin, rejection and betrayal, before finally being put to death. But his suffering is, on one level, his salvation: he dies, but his soul is redeemed.)

I'm 43. My life is already far from short compared to most humans who have ever lived.

I'm a year younger... Sure; as I said, it's not death that bothers me most, more the sense of things I missed out on. But I had no choice, at bottom.

[RGR]

[quote="JavaScriptDonkey"]