The ethics of having children in a Post-peak world

[Prokopton]

No it's not, it's a practical matter.

Yes, but ethics can be a practical matter. The word simply denotes the question of 'how we should live', generally or specifically.

For example, the way in which we farm unrestrainedly for profit can be shown to be ethically untenable, even if we take into account only your principle of 'what leads to survival'. There is no conflict there between ethics and practicality, therefore for something to be practical does not mean it is doesn't enter the domain of ethics. The ability to take long-term goals into account for ethical reasons would have aided our survival now considerably, if we had managed it in the 70s say.

For me survival certainly is an ethical principle and a practical matter, simultaneously.

I'm not arguing that there are no such things as personal ethics and conscience. I'm saying that these have no absolute validity

I don't claim that they have an absolute validity, nor do I think they are simply a question of conscience and 'feeling guilty'. I think that's a kneejerk ethic based on the more downmarket sorts of modern Christian preaching; I'm not interested in that. I was taught a lot of what I count as 'spiritual' in my life by martial artists and consequently I know the facts of human life as far as survival at the hands of the violent and psychopathic is concerned. I only follow an ethic that I think helps in that regard.

However, careful thought and about what really is true of humanity in a world where 'the strong rule and nature pushes the weak to the wall' can bring surprising results. The arguments in Plato's http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/gre ... rgias.html are a great example. They do not depend on any sort of faith, nor on feelings of guilt, but simply concern what works best.

Or hypothetically, let's imagine that I am not born with any particular tendency to act ethically, but later on I find that to do so strengthens me in some way that I can't deny. Then I have a motive to act that way, no matter what my feelings are.

Since I'm only talking about personal morality, this doesn't rest on a question of 'absolute' morality.

[DominicJ]

Caspian
Since you havent ended your life prematurely, I call hypocrite.

If the future is too horrible for my kids to even be allowed to be born, why isnt it so horrible you choose to end your own life peacefully?

[UndercoverElephant]

Yeah, but what kind of world would you be bringing them into? I would have a pretty low opinion of my parents if I thought they'd brought me into the world despite their believing that it was all going to go titsup. That would suggest a certain degree of ill-will towards me.

It would suggest that they brought you into the world because they wanted to have children in order to give their own lives meaning, and acted as if this was more important than the quality of life their children would actually experience - more like "disregard" than ill-will.

[UndercoverElephant]

There is no absolute morality, there is only whatever leads to survival.

I don't agree. Looks like the "naturalistic fallacy" to me.

I don't believe in absolute morality either, but I do believe in things like honesty and duty. I do not tell the truth because it helps my survival chances. It often damages my survival chances. I tell the truth because I think dishonesty is immoral. These are my morals, not absolute morals.

[caspian]

It would suggest that they brought you into the world because they wanted to have children in order to give their own lives meaning, and acted as if this was more important than the quality of life their children would actually experience - more like "disregard" than ill-will.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying my parents were somehow being spiteful by bringing me into the world - they had no knowledge of PO, and nor did most people back in 1970. Having children is just expected in our society, although I can't really get my head around the idea of having children to give meaning to one's life.

[UndercoverElephant]

I can't really get my head around the idea of having children to give meaning to one's life.

Try telling that to somebody who desperately wants children but is physically incapable of doing so.

[RGR]

[quote="Lord Beria3"]

[Kentucky Fried Panda]

This is why we have developed a civilisation rather than killing each other with stones...

Not really, I turned up with iron, killed you and your sons, mated with your wives and daughters, spread my genes.

You would need wood for that

[DominicJ]

UE
Honesty is a survival trait, its bestn to saves lies for when you really need them.
But then, was the lesson behind "the boy who cried wolf" dont lie, or dont tell the same lie twice?
(Elim Garek was the greatest Star Trek charector ever)

Doomsday
giggle

[UndercoverElephant]

UE
Honesty is a survival trait, its bestn to saves lies for when you really need them.

When it seems like there's a real compulsion to lie, that's when your honesty is really tested.

But then, was the lesson behind "the boy who cried wolf" dont lie, or dont tell the same lie twice?

It was a lesson about the benefits of having your credibility remain intact, because you'll never know when you are going to really need to be taken seriously. This is indeed a long-term benefit that comes with people knowing you to be an honest person, but it is not the primary reason why I am an honest person. I consider dishonesty, including habitual "little white lies" as well as the dirty great big ones, to be the psychological/spiritual equivalent of having poor standards of personal hygiene. Honesty is mental hygiene.

[caspian]

Try telling that to somebody who desperately wants children but is physically incapable of doing so.

I wouldn't dream of being so crass. But couples aren't generally incapable of having children, unless they're barred from adopting. Infertility is not a disease or an affliction. It seems that it's our culture that inflicts such misery on infertile people, by making the child-free feel like they're weird outcasts from society.

[emordnilap]

It seems that it's our culture that inflicts such misery on infertile people, by making the child-free feel like they're weird outcasts from society.

Maybe. But a daughter of mine, going through IVF cycles at the moment in a desperate attempt to have a child, feels that having children is what she's "for", in spite of all attempts to instil self-worth in her plus there being many people who value and love her for what she is.

I would not wish her feelings, nor what she's enduring to assuage them, upon anyone. She doesn't give a fig what society at large thinks of her. She just wants - needs - to give birth and nurture a child. I don't have trouble understanding that.

[DominicJ]

You exist, because unknown million of life forms, over the past who knows how many hundreds of millions of years, procreated.

Seems bloody unfair to stop know.

[Ludwig]

It seems that it's our culture that inflicts such misery on infertile people, by making the child-free feel like they're weird outcasts from society.

Maybe. But a daughter of mine, going through IVF cycles at the moment in a desperate attempt to have a child, feels that having children is what she's "for", in spite of all attempts to instil self-worth in her plus there being many people who value and love her for what she is.

I would not wish her feelings, nor what she's enduring to assuage them, upon anyone. She doesn't give a fig what society at large thinks of her. She just wants - needs - to give birth and nurture a child. I don't have trouble understanding that.

One reason I've spent very little of my life in relationships is that I could see myself getting trapped into becoming a father. I do think that for most women, reproduction is a visceral need that most men can't quite relate to.

A man goes into a relationship wanting fun, companionship and maybe love. A woman goes into a relationship wanting, above all those things, children. Even if she doesn't realise it at first.[1]

Even though I never wanted children, I'm what you might call a nurturing kind of person, and I generally feel protective towards children and animals. But it seems to me that that nurturing instinct is only half of what makes people want to have children: the other factor is that the thing they're nurturing is a genetic extention of themselves.

Nothing wrong with that, it would be surprising if it weren't the case; it's just not something I can relate to much.

[1] It's not a hard-and-fast rule of course - in fact in the case of my parents, it was my father who wanted children, and my mother who was ambivalent.

[Ludwig]

It was a lesson about the benefits of having your credibility remain intact, because you'll never know when you are going to really need to be taken seriously. This is indeed a long-term benefit that comes with people knowing you to be an honest person, but it is not the primary reason why I am an honest person. I consider dishonesty, including habitual "little white lies" as well as the dirty great big ones, to be the psychological/spiritual equivalent of having poor standards of personal hygiene. Honesty is mental hygiene.

I agree in essence, but I think you're seeing things in rather black-and-white terms, particularly as regards white lies.

Sometimes I have been grateful, in retrospect, that people lied to me (or probably lied to me) to spare my feelings. For example, a date may reject you because they don't find you attractive, but give the reason that they're moving area or that a long-lost lover has got back in touch with them. By the time you realise the probable truth, you're over the disappointment, which you certainly didn't need compounded by having your ego given a kicking.

The truth can hurt and is often best administered over a period of time, in manageable doses.

When I really want to hurt someone's feelings, which I confess I like to do in my worst moments, generally I do it by telling the truth.