Fusion Reactor Work Gets Go-Ahead

[RevdTess]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5012638.stm

"If all goes well with the experimental reactor, officials hope to set up a demonstration power plant at Cadarache by 2040."

"Officials project that 10-20% of the world's energy could come from fusion by the end of the century."

There goes my fond idea that fusion would save us

[skeptik]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5012638.stm

"If all goes well with the experimental reactor, officials hope to set up a demonstration power plant at Cadarache by 2040."

"Officials project that 10-20% of the world's energy could come from fusion by the end of the century."

There goes my fond idea that fusion would save us

Ha!.. fusion is always 50 years away...

heres the problem...

First heat your hydrogen up to 100 million degrees C. now... hold it... hold it... keep it there, just keep it there. Now, wheres the kettle?

Simple, No?

[Andy Hunt]

It will be a brave soul who flicks the 'on' switch.

I'm not sure I would like to be anywhere near that one!

[Vortex]

Nuclear fusion makes me SO annoyed.

They have been pissing about for FIFTY years ... and now want another 30 or more.

The whole thing is a scam - it's an alternative to the dole for physicists.

And of course when energy gets short THEY will be molly coddled just in case they can get the thing to work.

We should sack 90% of the current fusion people and get Microsoft or some other dynamic private sector firm on the case .. and hopefully look at smaller machines than tokamaks.

[skeptik]

We should sack 90% of the current fusion people and get Microsoft or some other dynamic private sector firm on the case .. and hopefully look at smaller machines than tokamaks.

Um...well if you can figure out how to persuade hydrogen nuclei to fuse together to form Helium in a controlled manner that doesnt involve giganormous magnetic bottles I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

you couldnt just make the kit smaller because it wouldnt work. The electomagnets are that big for a reason!

You'd need to discover some different principle and be able to convince the right people that its not just BS before gov.will give you any money

[Vortex]

Um...well if you can figure out how to persuade hydrogen nuclei to fuse together to form Helium in a controlled manner that doesnt involve giganormous magnetic bottles I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.
You couldnt just make the kit smaller because it wouldnt work. The electomagnets are that big for a reason!

It doesn't need to be me to do the flipping work. They ought to know by now if they can do it or not ... and either call it a day or build something that works.

FIFTY YEARS in multiple countries so far ... the Manhattan Project was somewhat quicker, as was the Apollo program.

You'd need to discover some different principle and be able to convince the right people that its not just BS before gov.will give you any money

Well the current crowd haven't exactly been successful so perhaps they are following a bullshit idea? Why throw good money after bad? Perhaps by performing a "restart"? I wouldn't be surprised if several alternative approaches have been sidelined over the years because of the embarrassment they would cause to the main project if they were to show promise. A complete "restart" might encourage scientists with those alternative approaches to come out of the woodwork without the fear of being sacked or mocked.

[skeptik]

FIFTY YEARS in multiple countries so far ... the Manhattan Project was somewhat quicker, as was the Apollo program.

Yes... but that was easy stuff... slam some Uranium together and watch it go bang... sit some blokes on top of a big firework in an airtight baked bean can and point it in the right direction... nothing much to it, really.

Controlled fusion is REALLY tricky. (almost as difficult as getting a Windows PC working reliably with half a dozen different peripherals - at the same time! )

[Vortex]

All I know is that if I had subcontracted some work out and they phoned back at the FIFTY YEAR mark to say "We need just another 50 years, guv" I might be considering looking at the Yellow Pages again.

F for Fusion. Must have a REAL address ... and not just a mobile phone number, with a comment to "Ask for Stan".

[Cycloloco]

We should sack 90% of the current fusion people and get Microsoft or some other dynamic private sector firm on the case .. and hopefully look at smaller machines than tokamaks.

Um...well if you can figure out how to persuade hydrogen nuclei to fuse together to form Helium in a controlled manner that doesnt involve giganormous magnetic bottles I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

you couldnt just make the kit smaller because it wouldnt work. The electomagnets are that big for a reason!

You'd need to discover some different principle and be able to convince the right people that its not just BS before gov.will give you any money

Have another look at:

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=105

And see if that is any better.

[Vortex]

Thanks Cycloloco - that's a good thread ...

[Pippa]

Nuclear power has always been able to take centre stage when it comes to energy. It's the ultimate magician, friend and adversary. It has worn so many guises over the decades, its been hailed as the savior to our power needs in the past (hurray), then its blown up in our faces (bo), its going to produce us more energy for less money (hurray), then its going to cost more to de-commission (bo), its safe, (hurray), oh no it isn't, (bo), don't like fission, there's more we have fusion (hurray)


and now for the big one - at this point the magician walks forward, all lights dim, - ting - on comes the spot light.....

Right audiences all round the world, you are feeling disallusioned (thinks - I should know I've helped) but don't worry, I am here to help. I can solve many of your problems, just watch this space, don't take your eyes off me - not for one minute - because if you blink I'm off and you don't want that do you? This may take a little while, it's going to cost you alot, in fact give me everything you can, the more you can spare the better your future will be, are you with me (magician casts eyes at audience who are spell bound, palms outstretched with money) That's it folks hold it there for one minute, don't take your eyes off the spot (walks off stage left - right boys he says to the assembly of worldwide government, I've got them! Carry on as before - its life as we know it. Walks back on stage)

Right folks, as I was saying......

[clv101]

This is what I heard on fusion at the Royal Society meeting in April:

Sir Chris Llewellyn Smith FRS - UKAEA Culham Division
The path to fusion power

Llewellyn gave an overview of the fusion process: Deuterium and tritium (heavy and very heavy hydrogen) are heated to a few thousand degrees which, through collisions, knock electrons from the atoms to produce plasma. When the nuclei of deuterium (proton and neutron) and the nuclei of tritium (proton and two neutrons) collide they are repelled due to the coulomb force. As you make the plasma hotter and hotter they move faster and faster and so get closer before they are repelled. As temperatures approach 100 million degrees they get close enough such that one grabs the other with the nuclear force - they fuse to make helium, a spare neutron and 17.6MeV.

This energy is in the form of kinetic energy, carried one fifth by the helium and four fifths by the neutron. The helium, due to it's electric charge, is contained by the magnetic field preventing the plasma from touching the walls and deposits its energy keeping the plasma hot. The neutron escapes since it is not charged and deposits its energy in the wall where it is used to generate electricity (thermally in the conventional way).

This heating of a large volume of gas to 100 million degrees can be routinely achieved. Projects to date just haven't been large enough for the resulting helium atoms to sustain the temperature. This is just a surface area to volume ratio problem and ITER should be large enough. Similarly suitable magnetic bottles to contain the plasma are now a reality, further work is on increasing the pressure to increase the number of fusion reactions per unit volume.

The remaining scientific challenge is the wall. The material has to withstand bombardment of several megawatts per square meter of 14MeV neutrons for several years. And the engineering challenge of systems integration.

Regarding timings, ITER should be operational with 10 years and in parallel, the material testing facility (International Fusion Materials Irradiation Facility, IFMIF) to find suitable wall materials should, once agreement is reached be built within 10-12 years. The first prototype power stations can be designed in parallel and should be ready to be built after some 8-9 years of data and analysis from ITER. The demonstration power station will take about 8-9 years to build resulting in fully operational power station within 27-28 years from now and commercial power stations maybe 15 years later.

I did manage to have a quick world with Llewellyn after his presentation, I asked him about the long timescales for fusion power with respect to oil/gas depletion within that time scale. He said that he used to think a lot about Hubbert's peak but now believes high prices will make unconventional oil viable so doesn't consider it much of a problem. He does wish Fusion could become a reality faster though!

http://uk.theoildrum.com/story/2006/4/1 ... 7/982#more

[PaulS]

Achieving viable fusion power would be such a profound step change in human history that it really does not matter how long it takes to achieve. Let the scientists take 200 hundred years, if that what it needs.

Fusion power would catapult us as a species from Planet size civilization to Solar size and possible beyond. Energy would not again in any foreseeable circumstances ever be a limiting factor on human endeavour. It would be a truly revolutionary change. more than a wheel, more than a combustion engine.

Of course, in the mean time we have the small problem of PO and GW at the same time, threatening loss of civilization and even species extinction. I think it is a race for survival. Either we manage to develop fusion power whilst civilization still exists or we go extinct as a cultural species.

No doubt, many threats will remain post fusion energy, particularly the exploitative nature of us humans and our society, nicely encapsulated in company law and capitalism as such. Together with our apparent inability to arrive at long term sustainable reasoned solutions, we may yet destroy ourselves regardless of the energy issue.

Hence my deep pessimism ...

[bigjim]

Problem with fusion energy, the reactors still require raw materials to build them... if we've used up all the lithium elsewhere then we're screwed with the fusion power stations. There ain't no thing as a free lunch

[Andy Hunt]

We already have a huge fusion reactor for our energy needs . . . it's called the sun.

Once we have mastered the ability to harness solar energy effectively, maybe then we can move on to trying to build our own mini-suns here on Earth.

Don't forget the law of conservation of energy: if we start generating energy from fusion reactions here on Earth, the Earth will inevitably heat up simply from the extra energy knocking around in the system.