Taking on a mortgage going forward...

[Prokopton]

I'm not saying all the danger comes from the BNP -- you're right, there is a possibility for movement of the main parties.

But hey, I'm glad you're so confident Germany was a one-time thing. Me, I think it's rather early to be so, but good for you!

[UndercoverElephant]

Well that's how it begins is all I'm saying! It's anger drives it onward. Those two groups were extremists in Germany as Weimar wobbled and no-one saw the Nazis coming!

I'm just saying it would be wise to keep an eye. The BNP support has tanked -- for now. And they are unprepossessing, but sadly, they aren't as stupid as they look.

EDIT:

Check this out from that link:

In fact, we're not just at Peak Oil. We're at Peak Grain, Peak Copper, Peak Uranium, Peak Fish, Peak Rare Earth Metals. All of which mean we're also inevitably at the Peak of the Milk of Human Kindness. From now on, the liberal elite can organise as many National Brotherhood Weeks as they like; tribalism and Nationalism will be the main currencies of human exchange.

These people are very clever at reading an angry mood and stoking it.

Just saying.

I don't agree. I am well aware of the BNP stance on Peak Oil and believe credit is due where it is due. If you think about what the BNP actually are then they are not just the British Racist Party - they really are British Nationalists and that means that they would naturally be more able to take on board something like Peak Oil and would have less fear about telling people about it. Whether or not the members of the BNP are racists is not directly connected to the fact that they are politically aligned with the idea of a self-sustaining and independent UK. I think it is a gross oversimplification to say they are simply "using" peak oil to further a racist agenda. They have perfectly good reasons to be worried about peak oil in its own right, regardless of their beliefs about race.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "Germany being a one-time thing". The situation that existed in Europe during the period of WWI and WWII (which were really part of the same war) cannot be repeated because the world has changed too radically since then. It really was a "one time thing". That doesn't mean that fascism, religious genocide and hyperinflation can't happen in the future, but the situation which led to those two world wars certainly can't happen again - not in Europe and not anywhere else either.

[Prokopton]

I think it is a gross oversimplification to say they are simply "using" peak oil to further a racist agenda. They have perfectly good reasons to be worried about peak oil in its own right, regardless of their beliefs about race.

I didn't mention race, I mentioned a fascist power grab which is what they want to do as soon as the other parties look weak and incompetent enough. They've said it openly. They might not be able to pull it off, but I think they're worth watching. Naturally they are worried about peak oil, and they age it ushers in, so they'd like to usher in some good old totalitarianism to strengthen us through that age. And go back to other good British values such as thrift, neighhbourliness, and yes, not having brown skin probably does figure.

But anyhow I've made my point here, I'm not that obssessed with them.

[Snail]

David Cameron is the acceptable face of the Conservatives. They're perfectly capable of moving furher right, thus making the BNP redundant. Look at what they're doing in Europe: forming links and alliances with far right parties and groups. Does the Conservative Monday Club still exist? They had view similar to the BNP.

One of the things I worry about is my parents's mortgage. I don't think young people would riot if the Gov intervened and forgave mortgage debts. A lot of young people view their parent's house as a kind of safety net. And it's not as if many young can afford a house anyway.

Rather Britain will probably do what many US states did during the Great Depression. They'll take action to limit the amount of foreclosures by creating creditor incentives to encourage loan re-negotiations. So, loans won't be written-off but re-negotiated to allow a breathing space. But only those mortgages with a realistic chance of being paid back, i imagine. Also, laws will be introduced to favour borrowers over lenders.

[UndercoverElephant]

David Cameron is the acceptable face of the Conservatives. They're perfectly capable of moving furher right, thus making the BNP redundant.

It would also make them (even more) unelectable. There's only so many people who will ever support the right wing of the tory party.

One of the things I worry about is my parents's mortgage. I don't think young people would riot if the Gov intervened and forgave mortgage debts. A lot of young people view their parent's house as a kind of safety net. And it's not as if many young can afford a house anyway.

Right...so that's OK for the ones whose parents have mortgages which haven't been paid off?

I'm sorry, but there can be no debt jubilee without SEVERE repercussions from the large proportion of the population which is not in debt, especially those who can't get on the bottom rung of the housing ladder.

Rather Britain will probably do what many US states did during the Great Depression. They'll take action to limit the amount of foreclosures by creating creditor incentives to encourage loan re-negotiations. So, loans won't be written-off but re-negotiated to allow a breathing space. But only those mortgages with a realistic chance of being paid back, i imagine.

As long as there is a constant stream of repossesed properties coming to market and house prices are falling I will be satisfied. If the reposessions stop and house prices stay inflated then I will be preparing to take up arms and protest violently myself.

[Snail]

It would also make them (even more) unelectable. There's only so many people who will ever support the right wing of the tory party.

That might be true now. But if, in the future, public opinion shifts right then the Tories will meet that demand at the BNP's expense.

Right...so that's OK for the ones whose parents have mortgages which haven't been paid off?

I'm sorry, but there can be no debt jubilee without SEVERE repercussions from the large proportion of the population which is not in debt, especially those who can't get on the bottom rung of the housing ladder.

As long as there is a constant stream of repossesed properties coming to market and house prices are falling I will be satisfied. If the reposessions stop and house prices stay inflated then I will be preparing to take up arms and protest violently myself.

Most householders have a mortgage to pay off. It was unfair that most of them had to take out a lengthy mortgage to buy a house in the first place. A mortgage that, in some cases, has taken a significant portion of their lives to pay back. But that's okay, let's throw a load of people and families onto the street, so you can get a first step on the hosing ladder. Jeez, I'd like a house too but not at this expense of others.

Giving some sort of help to huge numbers of property owners will not bring people onto the streets. You'll be one of a very few. Giving into the banks who mucked things up so spectacularly will.

I've another way of reducing housing prices and it doesn't involve making anybody homeless. People should only be allowed to own 1 house. Having 2 or more is just plain greedy, there's whole villages in the north half empty becuase of holiday home ownership. Either ban multiple house ownership or make it too expensive by taxation so people are forced to sell 2nd homes.

I guess anyway now might not be a good time to take out a mortgage. [/quote]

[Silas]

We do have to ask is the housing shortage real, by that I mean, we need to factor in all the Holiday homes, Wales, the Lakes, Cornwall, Norfolk, Suffolk, Scotland. The list is endless. I have looked at Holiday cottage Websites in my area, hundreds of fantastic period property with land just sitting there for profit and a long weekend for the rich, owned often by holiday companies, is this going to be sustainable in a post peak and finance shocked economy?

My in-laws live in the fens, on the drive there we pass several derelict farmhouses and cottages, just a snapshot of the thousands of empty properties across the UK.

Also dont forget about the parasites (no offense intended) that went into buy to let, another huge number of property in the hands of the currently wealthy, Property that was snapped from under the noses of first time buyers by those self professed entrapenurs, code for builders, bankers, hair salon and restaurant owners, footballers, Politicians, estate agents, financial consultants and so on, the list is endless, they chased the selfish dream and pushed up the prices. Is this also going to be a sustainable situation in a post peak and finance shocked economy?

On the whole Im not sure there is a physical housing stock shortage!

[stumuzz]

I find this anti small time landlord jealousy thing quite amusing. Billions are being paid to huge landowners in subsidies for crops and energy generation and not an unpleasant word is ever spoken about them. These people not only own a huge part of the country, but pay little or no tax.

A rough council house kid who buys a few houses to rent, well, what a cacophony, SCUM! Shoot him! No hang them so you can reuse the rope! Unbelievable.

You can almost hear the feet being stamped in a tantrum,
“This should not be happening, socially inferior people should not be landlords. I demand the social hierarchy back. HELP HELP! My lower middle class status is being usurped”

Yer, gotta laugh.

[featherstick]

Stumuzz you're letting several chips onto your shoulders in that post.

I don't think anyone cares about the social origins of the landlords - I haven't seen it mentioned. Rather they care that the buy-to-let phenomenon has both narrowed the market for new buyers, and also pushed rent levels up to the maximum that housing benefit will cover, with a host of malign outcomes that are dispersed among the population, while the benefits accrue to the few.

The UK has always had a rentier class - it was the basis of the Normans' rule of the country and the deep structures have never gone away. On reflection, perhaps there is some snobbery - the Duke of Westminter never seems to get slagged off.

[snow hope]

UCE is on his high horse and he has forgotton how to climb off...... simples.

[UndercoverElephant]

We do have to ask is the housing shortage real, by that I mean, we need to factor in all the Holiday homes, Wales, the Lakes, Cornwall, Norfolk, Suffolk, Scotland. The list is endless. I have looked at Holiday cottage Websites in my area, hundreds of fantastic period property with land just sitting there for profit and a long weekend for the rich, owned often by holiday companies, is this going to be sustainable in a post peak and finance shocked economy?

My in-laws live in the fens, on the drive there we pass several derelict farmhouses and cottages, just a snapshot of the thousands of empty properties across the UK.

Also dont forget about the parasites (no offense intended) that went into buy to let, another huge number of property in the hands of the currently wealthy, Property that was snapped from under the noses of first time buyers by those self professed entrapenurs, code for builders, bankers, hair salon and restaurant owners, footballers, Politicians, estate agents, financial consultants and so on, the list is endless, they chased the selfish dream and pushed up the prices. Is this also going to be a sustainable situation in a post peak and finance shocked economy?

Absolutely not. It is a grotesque injustice which has to be fixed. This is not "UE on his high horse." I suspect the debate here is being influenced by people who are either holders of expensive mortgages themselves or have close family who are.

[UndercoverElephant]

It would also make them (even more) unelectable. There's only so many people who will ever support the right wing of the tory party.

That might be true now. But if, in the future, public opinion shifts right then the Tories will meet that demand at the BNP's expense.

Right...so that's OK for the ones whose parents have mortgages which haven't been paid off?

I'm sorry, but there can be no debt jubilee without SEVERE repercussions from the large proportion of the population which is not in debt, especially those who can't get on the bottom rung of the housing ladder.

As long as there is a constant stream of repossesed properties coming to market and house prices are falling I will be satisfied. If the reposessions stop and house prices stay inflated then I will be preparing to take up arms and protest violently myself.

Most householders have a mortgage to pay off. It was unfair that most of them had to take out a lengthy mortgage to buy a house in the first place. A mortgage that, in some cases, has taken a significant portion of their lives to pay back.

Rubbish!!! They chose to take out those loans just as the bankers chose to lend the money. Nobody forced them to borrow money they can't pay back.

[mobbsey]

In fact, we're not just at Peak Oil. We're at Peak Grain, Peak Copper, Peak Uranium, Peak Fish, Peak Rare Earth Metals. All of which mean we're also inevitably at the Peak of the Milk of Human Kindness.

{engage empathetic doomer mode}
On a long enough time-line everyone's survival rate reduces to zero; just get used to it. At best you have an option to plan the way that you check out. So, what's the point in worrying?
{exit doomer mode}

So what?

It's just change, get used to it because it's the natural order of things. The people who have the greatest problem, I think, are those who cling tightly (insecurity?; lack of awareness?; comfort blanket against mind-numbing emptiness of modern anomie?) to the trappings of affluence, even though they do nothing to aid our survival as biological beings -- and in fact do everything to bring us down (e.g. gated communities being a honey-pot for crime).

Even the BNP and jack-boot democrats (New Labour?) have to eat and keep warm. If they can't get those basics right -- which I doubt because all the discussions I've had with many survivalists involved "stocking up" and "bunkering down" (the classic fear response) -- then their attrition rate is going to be much higher than those who are able to live a more basic, co-operative, self-supporting existence.

Anyone fancy a bit of wild camping?

[Prokopton]

In fact, we're not just at Peak Oil. We're at Peak Grain, Peak Copper, Peak Uranium, Peak Fish, Peak Rare Earth Metals. All of which mean we're also inevitably at the Peak of the Milk of Human Kindness.

{engage empathetic doomer mode}
On a long enough time-line everyone's survival rate reduces to zero; just get used to it. At best you have an option to plan the way that you check out. So, what's the point in worrying?
{exit doomer mode} So what? Laughing

So nothing dude, I'm already well used to what you're saying the BNP aren't that's all. Those aren't my beliefs, they're theirs.

Whatever, forget it.

[mobbsey]

Those aren't my beliefs, they're theirs

I wasn't implying they were -- I think people who are 'sold' on a particular ideological outlook to solve their personal problems should be pitied, not ridiculed.

The idea of politics, like organised religion, is a contradiction in terms. It seeks to deal with a changing environment by trotting out the same intellectual constructs as solutions... is it any surprise they don't work after a while?

Our greatest skill, as a species, is adaptation -- we use our minds to conceptualise what's going on around us, and for that reason we're the only mammal that has a "natural" (as in, indigenous communities -- not supported by modern commerce) from the Arctic to the tropics. Short of a large-scale nuclear exchange or an asteroid impact, the answers to our problems are all around us, if we choose to look for them; we just have to recognise them and adapt our lifestyles to work around them.

The problem is that such an approach requires personal involvement -- you have to learn and change yourself, it can't be bought "off the peg" like any other commodity. Consequently it's a pretty hard sell as a solution to anyone who's completely besotted with the present paradigm.