Local v National Government

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 03 Aug 2005, 10:42

I think that in the long run, national government will be relatively impotent to deal with the forthcoming lack-of-energy crisis.

In contrast, the power of local government (councils) will increase. It will be your local council who holds responsibility for energy and food security in the borough.

I think it's pretty useless writing to your MP, but if you can get in touch wil your local councillor, energy officer, community TRAs and steering groups, you will find people who are much more relevant to dealing with the coming crisis.

The challenge of Peak Oil is all about solutions at the local level - so get your local authority involved!

One example: most councils have a huge waste wood problem from their parks & gardens departments. Persuade your council to start up a wood fuel delivery scheme, using their waste wood, with grants towards the cost of installing wood burning stoves and boilers. You might be surprised at how well an idea like this will go down!

Peak Oil doesn't have to be the end of the world. Lateral thinking and local solutions can provide a new, strong and vibrant local community with a new spirit of co-operation.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 18 May 2006, 21:21

Prior to any real crisis the councils will do nothing.

Having dealt with local councils, I suspect that at times of crisis they will seize anything useful that they can.

They will justify it by saying it's in the "common good".

Your unprepared neighbours will report you - "for the good of the community" - and will enjoy seeing your generator or fuel being trucked away.

Do NOT trust your local council or your local police - Dixon Of Dock Green is long gone.

The authorities are NOT your friends.

grinu · Post by **grinu** » 18 May 2006, 22:35

I resent that. I went to work for a local authority because in private practice I was just helping some rich guy in london line his pockets at the expense of local people. Not my job revolves around helping local people and helping the local area and it's very rewarding, and everyone I know works very hard (and a lot harder than the people in private practice companies I've worked). The problem is cos everyone's so busy that not everything gets done and everybody we deal thinks we sit on our bums all day skiving and it's just not true.

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 19 May 2006, 06:30

I think that in the long run, national government will be relatively impotent to deal with the forthcoming lack-of-energy crisis.

In the long run?!!!

In contrast, the power of local government (councils) will increase.

I don?t see why as they are just another part of the system

I resent that.

I think that there are a lot of very sincere people working for others, both in local and national government. I think they put a lot of hard work into what they do. However, I don?t think it?s the people working for the government that are the problem I think it?s more the system. The government, whether local or national, are just cogs in the machine and they are not the only cogs in the machine. They can only do so much so when the machine is not working they have only a limited ability to get the machine back on track. Which is way I think governments are not really able to solve our problems. Better get a new machine.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 19 May 2006, 14:58

grinu wrote:I resent that. I went to work for a local authority because in private practice I was just helping some rich guy in london line his pockets at the expense of local people. Not my job revolves around helping local people and helping the local area and it's very rewarding, and everyone I know works very hard (and a lot harder than the people in private practice companies I've worked). The problem is cos everyone's so busy that not everything gets done and everybody we deal thinks we sit on our bums all day skiving and it's just not true.

I'm not questioning your personal aims, skills etc. However most people have a "general" view of civil servants based on their experience.

[START RANT]

Do you really think that corrupt planning departments, bullying tax officials, never ending petty paperwork, government waste, dirty infected hospitals, grasping municipal car park fees, uninvestigated & unsolved minor crimes, unfair public sector pension deals, stealth taxes, etc are unnoticed by the general working population?

Of course they are not - it's just impossible for the person in the street to "fight City Hall". Just ask around if you think that there is no festering resentment amongst private sector workers.

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh, but all my dealings in the last years with local government, national government and the police have shown me that we don't live in a democracy. The powers that be seem to be generally self serving and/or in the pockets of large corporations. I have asked around locally, and everyone I have spoken to sadly has the same jaundiced view of the police & civil servants.

The 56% of the UK population who are NOT government workers are sick of supporting almost half of the work force ... for very little return.

Now let's take this a bit further: Let's assume energy becomes very short. Who will get the fuel, food, police protection etc? Why the "essential services" of course. That means civil servants in central & local government.

As a civil servant would YOU turn down that ID card allowing you to buy fuel or food? Of course not - you would persuade yourself that you were providing a service essential to the community. And if your partner or parents needed some fuel too? You couldn't really refuse helping them out at the filling station could you?

In the unlikely event of a Mad Max decline, I can tell you that any civil servants turning up at the barricades of our village seeking sanctuary would be wasting their time.

[END RANT]

XENG · Post by **XENG** » 19 May 2006, 16:54

I was a civil servant for a while before coming to university, for the MOD. Thankfully i got out while i could, even though i could have had a very lucrative career with them, because i wanted to go to uni and of course my belief that the defence industry are a bunch of baby killers.

Vortex wrote: I can tell you that any civil servants turning up at the barricades of our village seeking sanctuary would be wasting their time.

How would you know?
Do civil servants these days carry the mark of Bliar?
Also, what if they had useful skills to offer, hard as that is to imagine?

BTW, Vortex, i hail from "Just South of Brum" myself, a little place called Bromsgrove.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 19 May 2006, 17:39

Hi XENG - my post was clearly marked as a RANT.

Sure, people with skills would be welcome at our redoubt.

However I and many others do feel strongly that the public sector is mostly taking the p*** out the rest of us .. and has being doing so since the beginning of time.

The idea that local government can bring us into a brave new world of harmony post Peak Oil is a joke.

In the intermediate stages of a crisis, the local government and police would simply set up protected "HQs" so that they can help the community. Of course these HQs would have more food and power than anywhere else. Just take a look at UN operations abroad if you want to see the split between the "managers" of disasters and the victims. Rows of shiny new white Land Rovers facing starving children.

In the latter stages of a crisis, it is much more likely that active capitalists stranded at home by the failure of the economy would organise locally and take over.

Just take a look at the make up of local protest and action groups - they are very often run by very tough business types.

Any attempt by local government officials to take over or interfere with non governmental local organisations post Peak could be unwise ... it could turn into "payback time" ....

XENG · Post by **XENG** » 19 May 2006, 18:44

Vortex wrote: However I and many others do feel strongly that the public sector is mostly taking the p*** out the rest of us .. and has being doing so since the beginning of time.

You're right, there is a lot of wastage in the public sector, and from my experience, a fair bit of corruption and blatant theft of what is effectively publicly owned equipment.
However i dont think its always been that way, well theres always a bit of wastage, i think the public sector has done some great things for us over the years.
Take telecommunications, if we had not had the Post Office and later the public British Telecom, do you really think many rural areas of this country would have had access to telephones (and now broadband)?
Then theres the NHS, which despite current trends is still one of the best health care systems in the world, and there are many more examples of good work done by the public sector.

Vortex wrote: Rows of shiny new white Land Rovers facing starving children.

I saw a news story on TV yesterday about Afghanistan, it mentioned how theres seems to be more SUV's in the centre of Kabal than London and how a foriegn UN driver gets paid much more than an Afghan driver.
Indeed, i continually find it incomprehensible that say a plumber in India gets paid less than a plumber in the UK even though they have the same skills.

Vortex wrote: In the latter stages of a crisis, it is much more likely that active capitalists stranded at home by the failure of the economy would organise locally and take over.

The word "Capitalists" makes me think of men in top hats with monocles, ecomomists, investment bankers (Cockney rhyming slang for...), fat cat CEO's and MD's, basically people that generally worship money.
From what i've seen these people are generally not aware of peak oil, and if they are they think the "market" will solve the problem automatically while they sit back and continue getting rich.
So, i would argue that after peak oil really starts biting, when these people have finished pissing their pants, they're actually more likely to start jumping out of the windows of their city office buildings in true 1930's depression style.

People that worship money are usually not capable of thinking about anyone but themselves, so it is them that will be locking themselves away in "HQ's", fortified compounds and gated communities, like they do in developing countries presently.
The people doing the organising will be people with skills who care about the survival of the local community, not people that see the local community as serfs who can be exploited.

I dont really expect local or any government for that matter to help me when the poo hits the fan, i expect to have to help myself and those whom i find myself living near, however, communities need some for of organising/governance/leadership which is democratic so i expect we'll see some form of local government arise in the future (its local government Jim, but not as we know it).

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 20 May 2006, 11:48

Vortex wrote: I dont really expect local or any government for that matter to help me when the poo hits the fan, i expect to have to help myself and those whom i find myself living near,

Well, at the risk of repeating my self, I think its up to use to sort out what to do. And that will involve networking together.

Vortex wrote: however, communities need some for of organising/governance/leadership which is democratic

Do they? I woudn't agree.

Vortex wrote: so i expect we'll see some form of local government arise in the future (its local government Jim, but not as we know it).

Anybody up for a change in civilisation?

aliwood · Post by **aliwood** » 20 May 2006, 12:42

One of the services offered in our community is a composting scheme, where appropriate waste is taken away (on the back of an old milk float) and composted. The service is offered in those areas of town with terraced houses that don't have gardens, and so can't realistically fit in a compost bin. The council then bags it and gives it away along with bark chip mulch made from their park trees at the local tip. Sadly the local tip is too far away by bike for almost everyone to get to, but it's a start.

grinu · Post by **grinu** » 21 May 2006, 21:21

Do you really think that corrupt planning departments,

A minority. And to be honest I've never been told to change my professional view in the public sector, but was often put under considerable pressure to do so by developers when working in the private sector. I don't think corruption is limited to public sector employees. Look at everything from huge corporations using sweatshops, to local builders who dump their controlled waste at the end of a quiet cul-de-sac when everybody's in bed (and who cleans it up?).

bullying tax officials,

I agree that the majority of our taxes are p*ssed up the wall. They end up paying for studies to prove why kids are so fat, and to pay for initiatives to teach people how to eat properly, how to exercise etc. etc. That is mainly a result of people not wanting to take responsibility for themselves. I agree that we are over-taxed.

never ending petty paperwork,

a result of central government targets and policies and the need to have a paper trail to save your back in case someone decides to sue because they tripped over the kerb and twisted their ankle. Not caused by local government but central government policies and targets and the current sue-for-anything culture. Most people I work with find it incredibly frustrating. Why do you think hardly any playgrounds have swings? It's because most local authorities can't afford to pay the insurance premiums due to such a high incidence of suings.

government waste,

Again I think this is mainly a result of central government policies.

dirty infected hospitals

agree health service is crap

grasping municipal car park fees

use public transport

stealth taxes,

again central government

Of course they are not - it's just impossible for the person in the street to "fight City Hall". Just ask around if you think that there is no festering resentment amongst private sector workers.

I realise there is festering resentment from private sector workers. I resent traffic wardens, but sure, they have to make a living somehow. People are people. Private or public, if someone is corrupt or unscrupulous then they will act in unscrupulous or corrupt ways whether they work in the public secotr OR the private sector.

The 56% of the UK population who are NOT government workers are sick of supporting almost half of the work force ... for very little return.

Don't worry - your tax isn't paying for me - our section runs a non-profit trading account to fund our salaries using european funding, lottery funding and private fees where people think we are worth it. If we don't secure funding for community projects, then we dont charge fees. If our clients (local communities) don't like what we've done then we don't charge fees. If we aren't paying our way then our jobs will be scrapped. You'd be surprised at how many public sector workers aren't paid for by the taxman.

Now let's take this a bit further: Let's assume energy becomes very short. Who will get the fuel, food, police protection etc? Why the "essential services" of course. That means civil servants in central & local government.

I think a lot of public sector jobs will be lost when it comes to that. Essential services are things like waste collection, environmental health etc.

As a civil servant would YOU turn down that ID card allowing you to buy fuel or food? Of course not - you would persuade yourself that you were providing a service essential to the community. And if your partner or parents needed some fuel too? You couldn't really refuse helping them out at the filling station could you?

I consider myself to be providing a service essential to the community. Permaculture design, environmental improvements for deprived communities, ensuring there are adequate open spaces for recreation, growing food etc., battling against private developers to try to ensure that local environments aren't ruined (a lot of the situations where people think you are in cahoots with developers is where national planning policies are so inadequate that developers can ride roghshod over the whole system).

In the unlikely event of a Mad Max decline, I can tell you that any civil servants turning up at the barricades of our village seeking sanctuary would be wasting their time.

Well tell me where you end up because I defintely wouldn't take any of my skills there. To be honest, I'm really angry at your narrow-minded, predjudiced views. This forum is fantastic and I would hate to see it degenerate into bickering. Now, I can't stand back and not respond to comments like yours because I'm too stubborn, so I think this will be my last contribution. Good while it lasted.

Too many people use peak oil to try and force an agenda, whether it's pro-this or anti-that. I'm just getting really disillusioned. Anyway, hope my contributions have helped out a few people.

Cheers.

Pippa · Post by **Pippa** » 21 May 2006, 21:59

There is a trap here - called ego - think them and us, you and me and then use the word "WE. Don't be disallusioned by Vortex's word Grinu - reflect on the balance of the words - then go off and do something (physical that is) make ideas become reality.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 21 May 2006, 22:56

Grinu, I spent 6 months of my life fighting an unwarranted rural factory expansion.

All was OK whilst we wrote to MPs, stood outside Downing St ... all the usual ineffectual stuff.

However I then started an activist web site and made up some huge (expensive!) banners advertising the website and strung them up around town.

The website was VERY effective and had been visited by clients, staff, suppliers, directors & shareholders of the factory. They began to put unexpected pressure on the factory owners ...

Suddenly life got very difficult: the local council threatened to prosecute me, the police were threatening to use anti-terrorism (!) laws against me, factory staff harassed me & other supporters ... and their young children, the factory sued me ... all within a few days!

I had no choice but to kill the web site. So perhaps you know know why I no longer trust local councils or the police.

This was my first foray into any sort of politics - at the age of 40-something.

I soon learned how the local council, councillors, police & big business all work hand-in-hand.

Pesky protestors come & go - but the authorities have to work with each other day-in, day-out ... so they take the easy route. Big business wins.

Occasionally they need to smack down the protestors if they actually have a chance of winning, otherwise they simply let them play their little games ... the protest will fade away in due course.

They have of course seen many protests over the years and know how to handle them.

However for many protestors it's their first & maybe only experience so they are learning all the time and can make mistakes or generally fail in their aims.

Following this salutory experience I then asked around - nobody was surprised by what had happened. I also heard several plausible sounding - but unverifiable - tales about local council corruption.

I used to believe in British democracy - but now I now better. The whole protest experience also meant that I met others who had had similar experiences of the pointlessness of fighting "City Hall".

So are you surprised if I trust central or local government to deal with the local population fairly in a situation such as Peak Oil?

No, they will rely on "Britsish decency" so that the population can be conned .... and until my rather late-in-life activist experiences they would have succeeded in conning me too ...

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 22 May 2006, 00:18

Very interesting posts. I must admit to swaying towards vortex's cynacism. We would be naieve in my opinion to rely on the (local/central) government to assist us when the going gets tough. I consider the reality to be close to the levels of corruption described. We need look no further than what some of our MPs get up to - the few that get caught out and exposed that is - to see just how power and politics cause many to ensure that they and their family and friends don't lose out on financial matters!

Whilst there are many who no doubt have the publics best interests most prominent in their minds and intentions, the higher up the ladder one gets in government, the greater the risk of corruption appears to become.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 22 May 2006, 10:20

This forum is fantastic and I would hate to see it degenerate into bickering. Now, I can't stand back and not respond to comments like yours because I'm too stubborn, so I think this will be my last contribution. Good while it lasted.

Me neither - stay with us, Grinu, you would be sorely missed.

I too work for local government, as a sustainability officer, and I agree with many of the criticisms of local government.

As part of my job I have to cajole and coerce other people and departments into taking on new environmental and social responsibilities, and the inertia which exists in local government is very difficult to overcome sometimes.

But ultimately, and despite these frustrations, I feel that I am making a bigger difference working inside the system than I would just working on my own. I am managing to get planning policies changed to include a minimum requirement for on-site renewable energy, to force developers to be 'greener'. I am succeeding in getting tree-planting projects approved, community orchards, wood stoves and solar panels to tackle fuel poverty, and some other stuff too.

So I do actually agree about the mindset of local government - I am up against it myself, even working inside the system. And I agree there is corruption and waste, I have seen it myself. But at the end of the day, essential services like police, fire, waste etc do help to keep some sort of semblance of order in the face of crisis.

The other thing of course is 'grant culture', where people expect the Council to provide grants for everything. At the end of the day, if people got off their backsides and got their own solar panels, grew their own food, and recycled their own waste, local government wouldn't have any excuse for putting up the council tax.

Incidentally, the last time council tax went up, pretty close to 100% of the rise was due to extra administration charges in London. Now THAT I do disagree with - council tax is for local services, why on Earth should we pay an administration charge to London for sorting it out?