Battle over electric plug standards

[ujoni08]

http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blo ... standards/

'The German plug was expected to be adopted as standard but has been blocked by the French and Italians because it lacked safety “shutters” that are used in some countries to protect children from accidental shocks'.

Jon

[adam2]

Sounds to me as though consultants are trying to overcomplicate what should be a simple matter.
Why do we need a special plug for electric cars ?
What is wrong with useing standard 13 amp ones as already widely used, too cheap and simple perhaps ? Why on earth would we want German plugs for charging EVs in England.
All common EVs use a detachable lead for charging. The end that goes into the car can be whatever the manufactuerer chooses, the other end that goes into a wall socket should be a standard domestic plug suited to the country in which the vehicle is used.
If the vehicle is used in another country, then obtaining another lead or an adaptor is trivial.

[ujoni08]

Agreed.
Jon

[Pepperman]

Surely the cable used in a fast charger will be considerably chunkier than the cable used for plugging into a standard 13A socket? As an EV owner I wouldn't want to lug around 3m of fast charge cable all the time. Much better to have it integrated into the charging unit and use standard connectors (for once)

[DominicJ]

"What is wrong with useing standard 13 amp ones as already widely used, too cheap and simple perhaps ?"

Which one?
The UK one?
The 2 pin Euro one?

Isnt there a three pin Euro one?

There the three pin "kettle" lead as well.

Sounds to me as though consultants are trying to overcomplicate what should be a simple matter.

Alas no, its the wonders of the EU.
Who gets the EU standard plug award gets a liscence to print money for the next decade.

Pepperman
100 amp cable isnt much bigger than 13 amp really.
Well, it is, but its not going to cause you any problems

[adam2]

13 amp plugs are already used for charging EVs in the UK and have the merit of being readily available, and of permitting charging from any standard socket, rather than being restricted to special ones.

Other plugs can be used in other countries as required.

100 amp cable is heavier than 13 amp, but by no means unmanagable in short lengths.
I doubt however that we will see many vehicles utilising 100 amp supplies for charging.
Many domestic supplies are only 60 amps and very few exceed 100 amps, and remember that is for the whole house, not just EV charging.
Even large buildings with a 3 phase supply of a few hundred amps would be marginal if an electric vehicle used 100 amps whilst charging.
Not many householders would be willing to pay thousands of pounds for a supply upgrade in order to charge a car in an hour instead of 8 hours.

[kenneal - lagger]

A standard weatherproof lockable fitting should be developed for on street charging in cities. You don't want to have to leave a door or window open, even to the garage, with the cable running through to a socket inside. And you won't want someone "accidentally" connecting up to your electricity supply or people like JohnB connecting his camper van up to the free power supply that many cities are encouraging for EVs.

[JohnB]

people like JohnB connecting his camper van up to the free power supply that many cities are encouraging for EVs.

Why not? People who live in vans use far less resources than you lot in houses, so we deserve a reward for it .

[Pepperman]

I don't expect householders to invest in fast charging but a network of public fast charging points is going to be rolled out across Europe.

[adam2]

I don't expect householders to invest in fast charging but a network of public fast charging points is going to be rolled out across Europe.

In which case, no standard domestic plug and socket is going to be suitable owing to the large currents involved.
No point in debating what countries domestic connectors are to be used.

Heavy current connections are much more standardised already accross Europe. "Ceeform" connectors are already widely used in industry for larger loads.
Common* current ratings are 16 amps, 32 amps, and 63 amps.
Available* in 3 pin blue for 220/230/240 volt for single phase.
Available* in 4 pin red for 3 phase 380/400/415 volts
Available* in 5 pin red for 3 phase and neutral 230/400 volts.

It would seem sensible to standardise on one these, perhaps the red 4 pin, 32 amp version for connection to a 3 phase 380/400/415 volt supply as is found in built up areas almost throughout Europe.
That would give a charging input of about 22KW or about 7 times that available from a domestic outlet.

This might however be too simple ? perhaps the oportunity should be taken to design something expensive and non standard.

* Note that many other types of ceeform connector exist, I listed only the common types in widespread use.
Violet=24/25 volts, not suitable for vehicle charging.
Yellow=110/120 volts, not enough power, not common for mains supplies
Blue 4 pin, 220/230/240 volt three phase, not common
125 amp, too big and heavy.
And various other obscure types.

[Pepperman]

Well electric cars have some peculiarities that need to be considered. For example you want a plug that can't be pulled out by a passing kid and you want the ability for communications to be established between the charger and the vehicle.

[adam2]

Well electric cars have some peculiarities that need to be considered. For example you want a plug that can't be pulled out by a passing kid and you want the ability for communications to be established between the charger and the vehicle.

I feel that electric cars need to be regarded as domestic appliances that may be plugged into any standard socket, just like a kettle, fridge or TV.
Overcomplicating the issue is liable to deter use.

I dont see the need for any communication between the power supply and the vehicle, any more than ones fridge needs to communicate, rather than be simply plugged in.

More complex arrangements would be needed for fast charging, probably a 3 phase supply. But for most purposes a standard 13 amp socket will easily charge a normal sized EV whilst the owner sleeps or works.

EV charging points are to be installed at work, they will be standard weatherproof 13 amp ones.
The increasingly popular public charging points are 13 amp.

[revdode]

The issue I think is discussions on future proofing for smart grids, using the car also as a battery. In this case communication is needed and the plugs need to avoid have exposed pins on either size of the connection.

[clv101]

I feel that electric cars need to be regarded as domestic appliances that may be plugged into any standard socket, just like a kettle, fridge or TV.
Overcomplicating the issue is liable to deter use.

I dont see the need for any communication between the power supply and the vehicle, any more than ones fridge needs to communicate, rather than be simply plugged in.

I think a case can be made for treating electric cars differently.

1) They are likely to use far more energy than any other domestic appliance making the management of that demand more important.
2) Uniquely, they store a lot of energy and therefore have the potential to act as a domestic or even neighbourhood UPS/backup - preventing black/brown outs that might otherwise occur.
3) Related to point 2, is that even if their batteries aren't used to return power to the grid, the electric car can perform a useful grid-stability role by just switching between the two modes of 'charging' and 'not-charging' based on local grid conditions.
4) They will only be manufactured by a small number of companies so developing and adhering to new standards shouldn't be too hard.

[Pepperman]

I feel that electric cars need to be regarded as domestic appliances that may be plugged into any standard socket, just like a kettle, fridge or TV.
Overcomplicating the issue is liable to deter use.

I dont see the need for any communication between the power supply and the vehicle, any more than ones fridge needs to communicate, rather than be simply plugged in.

Frequency response services (from fridges and EVs) can be done simply by monitoring the grid frequency which involves incorporating a very cheap chip into the device (it is astonishing that this supremely easy win hasn't been grabbed yet!)

Communications will come in to play more when battery prices come down and lifetimes go up as the potential for more active participation in grid balancing services in the form of V2G. But there is a significant role for comms now in terms of remote control of vehicle charging.

If we want a lot of renewables on our grid then we're going to need ways of adding and shedding load at short notice and once the battery issues are licked, EVs will be ideal for that.