Is the West History?

Prono 007 · Post by **Prono 007** » 06 Mar 2011, 17:56

I've no idea but that's the title of a documentary on Channel 4 tonight at 8pm (and an hour later on +1).

Might be interesting.

MisterE · Post by **MisterE** » 06 Mar 2011, 18:00

Thanks will take a nose

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 06 Mar 2011, 18:01

Thanks for the heads up.

See:

The first programme in the series begins in 1420 when Ming China had a credible claim to be the most advanced civilization in the world: 'All Under Heaven'. England on the eve of the Wars of the Roses would have seemed quite primitive by contrast.

Yet the lead that China had established in technology was not to be translated into sustained economic growth. In China a monolithic empire stifled colonial expansion and economic innovation. In Europe political division bred competition.

The question for our own time is whether or not we have lost that competitive edge to a rapidly ascending Asia.

Original Article

featherstick · Post by **featherstick** » 06 Mar 2011, 21:23

Better off reading Ponting's History of the World for a proper perspective.

RogueMale · Post by **RogueMale** » 06 Mar 2011, 21:27

Good programme, well worth watching. Appropriately, I watched it eating a waffle and drinking a Belgian ale, products of a country so divided it can't form a government.

My only criticisms are that the presenter thought that consumerism was one of the "killer apps" which gave the West supremacy over China (despite it being a 20th century development), and that there's an implied assumption that China today has a civilization distinct from the West. It has a separate culture and economy, but for the past century has shared a civilization with the rest of the planet, and if that collapses anywhere, it collapses everywhere.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 06 Mar 2011, 21:55

RogueMale · Post by **RogueMale** » 06 Mar 2011, 22:08

TroubledTimes wrote:I thought it was great, although surprising to not see "natural resources" as a factor in his killer apps. After all, the trades that shaped the world are all dependent on the abundance of natural resources and cheap labour. But perhaps that comes later ion the series.

China had an abundance of both natural resources and cheap labour but they didn't prevent it from stagnating, and later collapsing. Portugal didn't have much of either but became a major colonial power, including grabbing a small part of China (Macau).

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 07 Mar 2011, 01:17

TroubledTimes wrote:One thing that did annoy me... Niall... please... buy a couple more shirts!

You consumer, you!!

I've got it recorded and will watch it in the week.

Prono 007 · Post by **Prono 007** » 07 Mar 2011, 09:53

Glad people enjoyed it.

I was actually very disappointed by it as it didn't really go any where towards answering the title question: Is the West History?

I'll have to watch the Jared Diamond documentary of his book "Guns, Germs and Steel" some time. I imagine that's a bit deeper and more scholarly than last night's programme.

caspian · Post by **caspian** » 07 Mar 2011, 14:07

Like Prono I didn't rate this much. Niall Ferguson's repeated attempt to look "down with the kids" with saying asinine things like "civilisation 2.0" and "killer app" repeatedly were just really annoying. I suspect that this series will pay no attention to the energy crunch, and how it will smother China's industrial utopia. I hope I'm wrong.

Prono 007 wrote:I'll have to watch the Jared Diamond documentary of his book "Guns, Germs and Steel" some time. I imagine that's a bit deeper and more scholarly than last night's programme.

Yes, it's much better. I haven't read the book, but the documentary is brilliant. His book Collapse is good too.

EDIT: Just to add that Collapse was given the documentary treatment last year.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 07 Mar 2011, 18:15

Prono 007 - I think he will try to answer that question later on the series. Patience please!!

Regarding the energy crunch, he is aware of the general resource crunch situation, but history isn't just about resources, its far more interesting than that- for all those materialists among you.

Regarding the killer app stuff, it was mildly annoying, but a fact of life these days for the ipod generation (might be mine, but I am unique!!!)

An Inspector Calls · Post by **An Inspector Calls** » 08 Mar 2011, 09:09

RogueMale wrote: My only criticisms are that the presenter thought that consumerism was one of the "killer apps" which gave the West supremacy over China (despite it being a 20th century development), and that there's an implied assumption that China today has a civilization distinct from the West. It has a separate culture and economy, but for the past century has shared a civilization with the rest of the planet, and if that collapses anywhere, it collapses everywhere.

Consumerism started at the end of the 17th century when people began to make things speculatively rather than to command. There wasn't much done at first, but it escalated down the centuries. It's seen as one of the driving causes of the Industrial Revoluition. (See many of the books by L T C Rolt - all excellent, well written and researched - and Bronowski, Ascent of Man).

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 08 Mar 2011, 23:24

Thanks for the warning, Caspian. There's no way I'll be watching a programme that talks about "Civilisation 2.0".

There was a TV series in the 80s called "The Triumph of the West" by J M Roberts, which I'd like to get hold of, and which I would bet is a whole lot better than "Is the West History?". I've got the book, which I've dipped into, and it is extremely insightful. One of the late chapters is called "A Sense of Decline", and in it he deals with the moral malaise of modern civilisation. He also talks about Islamic extremism - fascinating to read it nearly 3 decades on, and it's as pertinent as ever.

RogueMale · Post by **RogueMale** » 08 Mar 2011, 23:44

Ludwig wrote:Thanks for the warning, Caspian. There's no way I'll be watching a programme that talks about "Civilisation 2.0".

I'm afraid TV programmes have been dumbed down a bit over the last decade or so. What I saw was better than I expected.

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 08 Mar 2011, 23:52

RogueMale wrote: I'm afraid TV programmes have been dumbed down a bit over the last decade or so.

Yes, I know, and that's why I generally prefer to read books than watch documentaries.

Even David Attenborough's programmes are pretty shite these days - all sentimental narration, infuriating background music and gimmicky camerawork. Not his fault, but the producers', I assume.