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extractorfan
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Post by extractorfan »

UndercoverElephant wrote: Rationally, we should accept the consensus. You aren't being rational.
No, I am explaining why a video can be found funny without being an ignorant climate change deniar.

You are taking the oportunity to express your belief in climate change with religious zeal, attacking me and anyone who doesn't take the subject in such earnest as you.

The consensus of the world is, everything's going to be ok, should we accept that? Or is it only scientists who we should trust?

My criticism is of the way climate change, as it relates to the need for lifestyle change should be taken on board, is put, many people can't be bothered to read books, even though they are not necessarily unintelligent. Attaking people who question your views (by the way I don't, just you methods) will more often lead people to withdraw from the debate altogether.

You should still look at evidence not just consensus in my opinion, it's there, at the library.
raspberry-blower
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Post by raspberry-blower »

extractorfan wrote:
And as for everyday things we do, yes to a certain extent, but I researched the MMR scare thing and found that to be a load of baloney
Conflating Anthropogenic Climate Change with MMR is extremely disingenuous. First up, the claims that were made by Dr Wakefield were based on an extremely small sample size - these were never replicated and in fact, were found out to be false. The scare was perpetrated by clueless hacks who know diddly squat about scientific issues. Whereas climate scientists are continually finding that their worst case scenarios need revising - it is far worse than they ever imagined.

You might want to read this old article from Ben Goldacre
Ben Goldacre wrote:The media are fingering the wrong man, and they know who should really take the blame: in MMR, journalists and editors have constructed their greatest hoax to date, and finally demonstrated that they can pose a serious risk to public health. But there are also many unexpected twists to learn from: the health journalists themselves were not at fault, the scale of the bias in the coverage was greater than anybody realised at the time, Leo Blair was a bigger player than Wakefield, and it all happened much later than you think.
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extractorfan
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Post by extractorfan »

raspberry-blower wrote:
extractorfan wrote:
And as for everyday things we do, yes to a certain extent, but I researched the MMR scare thing and found that to be a load of baloney
Conflating Anthropogenic Climate Change with MMR is extremely disingenuous.
Either you misunderstood me, or I wasn't clear...
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

I now accept, after reviewing the evidence that man is strong impacting the environment. Whether the world warms or cools is anather matter... I suspect that although for large parts of the world warming will become worse, other parts of the world will experience more erratic and random weather in the coming decades.

I still think that the natural cycles of Planet Earth and the Sun are under-estimated by scientists and that the impact of climate change won't be the end of the world.

Although certain poor parts of the world like parts of north Africa and Banglidesh are buggered, the rest of the world will adapt to climate shifts.

Regarding the politics of climate change, this is a very good article.

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2 ... rding-cats
It’s worth glancing back over the last decade or so to get a sense of the way this book fits into the broader process by which climate change activism ran off the rails. In 2001, despite fierce opposition from business interests and right-wing parties generally, it was very much in the ascendant, and some form of regulation of carbon emissions looked like a done deal. Opposition from the White House and well-funded think tanks notwithstanding, the movement to limit CO2 emissions could have become the sort of juggernaut that extracted the Endangered Species Act and a flurry of other environmental legislation from another conservative Republican administration thirty years earlier. That it did not was, I think, the result primarily of three factors.
Lesson no 1:
The first was the astonishing political naivete of the climate change movement. All through the last decade, that movement has allowed its opponents to define the terms of public debate, execute a series of efficient end runs around even the most telling points made by climate science, and tar the movement in ever more imaginative ways, without taking any meaningful steps to counter these moves or even showing any overt interest in learning from its failures. Partly this unfolds from the fixation of the American left on the experiences of the 1960s, a fixation that has seen one movement after another blindly following a set of strategies that have not actually worked since the end of the Vietnam war; partly, I suspect, it’s rooted in the background of most of the leading figures in the climate change movement, who are used to the very different culture of scientific debate and simply have no notion how to address the very different needs of public debate in society that does not share their values.
Secondly;
This latter point leads to the second primary factor in the failure of the climate change movement, which is the extent that it attempted to rely on the prestige of institutional science at a time when that prestige has undergone a drastic decline. The public has become all too aware that the expert opinion of distinguished scientists has become a commodity, bought and sold for a price that these days isn’t always discreetly disguised as grant money or the like. The public has also been repeatedly shown that the public scientific consensus of one decade is fairly often the discarded theory of the next. When you grow up constantly hearing from medical authorities that cholesterol is bad for you and polyunsaturated fats are good for you, and then suddenly he medical authorities are saying that polyunsaturated fats are bad for you and some kinds of cholesterol are good, a certain degree of blind faith in the pronouncements of scientists goes out the window.
3rd lesson;
Still, I’ve come to think that a third factor has played at least as important a role in gutting the climate change movement. This is the pervasive mismatch between the lifestyles that the leadership of that movement have been advocating for everyone else and the lifestyle that they themselves have led. When Al Gore, after having been called out on this point, was reduced to insisting that his sprawling mansion has a lower carbon footprint than other homes on the same grandiose scale, he exposed a fault line that runs straight through climate change activism, and bids fair to imitate those old legends of California’s future and dump the entire movement into the sea.
On a personal level, this is something that I find repelling about many middle class greens. Seeing superrich types like Prince Charles or Al Gore who use a huge amount of energy lecturing the rest of us to go back to a low-carbon (read Third World) lifestyle is offensive.

Very few greens actually live the lifestyle they preach.

There are very important lessons for the Peak Oil movement, which few here seem to get.
All these points are profoundly relevant to the core project of this blog, for many of the weaknesses I’ve traced out are also found in the peak oil movement. That movement has no shortage of political naivete, and it has plenty of spokespeople who mistakenly assume that their professional expertise – significant as that very often is – can be cashed in at par for influence on public debate. It also has its share of leaders who are perfectly willing to talk in the abstract about how people need to ditch their autos and give up air travel, but insist that they themselves need their SUV for one reason or another and wouldn’t dream of going to the next ASPO conference by train. These are serious weaknesses; unchecked, they could be fatal.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

Lord Beria3 wrote:go back to a low-carbon (read Third World) lifestyle
That's rather unimaginative. Why go back? That's impossible. We can only go forward to a low-carbon lifestyle. It need not necessarily be like the Third World.
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JohnB
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Post by JohnB »

clv101 wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:go back to a low-carbon (read Third World) lifestyle
That's rather unimaginative. Why go back? That's impossible. We can only go forward to a low-carbon lifestyle. It need not necessarily be like the Third World.
Has anyone actually worked out what life would be like, and how we'd be living in Britain, if we were living a sustainable lifestyle? I really want to know this as part of what I'm currently working on. I think the Transition tools like timelines and backcasting can be really useful here, to work out how we get from where we are, to where we think we need to be. In fact I might even start a new thread on it.
John

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Mean Mr Mustard
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Post by Mean Mr Mustard »

The comment thread to JMG's blog is also very good quality this week.

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/

Like one guy said, try herding cats when you don't have the tuna... :D

Our John has a sheepdog. That might work.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

extractorfan wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote: Rationally, we should accept the consensus. You aren't being rational.
No, I am explaining why a video can be found funny without being an ignorant climate change deniar.

You are taking the oportunity to express your belief in climate change with religious zeal, attacking me and anyone who doesn't take the subject in such earnest as you.
I consider myself to be an active participant in an ideological war.
The consensus of the world is, everything's going to be ok, should we accept that? Or is it only scientists who we should trust?
It's only scientists we should trust, provided the question being asked is actually a scientific matter. If you've got a question about ethics or metaphysics, ask a priest, a philosopher or a man on the street. If you've got a question about how some physical process is likely proceed, ask a scientist and feel free to ignore the priests, philosophers and men on the street.

My criticism is of the way climate change, as it relates to the need for lifestyle change should be taken on board, is put, many people can't be bothered to read books, even though they are not necessarily unintelligent. Attaking people who question your views (by the way I don't, just you methods) will more often lead people to withdraw from the debate altogether.

You should still look at evidence not just consensus in my opinion, it's there, at the library.
I don't understand why you believe I should have to get deeply into the scientific literature on this issue when I'm perfectly happy to trust the normal information-routes for other scientific issues.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Lord Beria3 wrote:I now accept, after reviewing the evidence that man is strong impacting the environment. Whether the world warms or cools is anather matter... I suspect that although for large parts of the world warming will become worse, other parts of the world will experience more erratic and random weather in the coming decades.
That is the scientific mainstream view.
I still think that the natural cycles of Planet Earth and the Sun are under-estimated by scientists and that the impact of climate change won't be the end of the world.
No, but it does mean the end of the world as we know it.
Although certain poor parts of the world like parts of north Africa and Banglidesh are buggered, the rest of the world will adapt to climate shifts.
Bangladesh.

Very few greens actually live the lifestyle they preach.
That is because they are part of The System, and there's little they can actually do about it.

Are scientists politically naive? Some of them are. Their job is not politics.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

JohnB wrote:
clv101 wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:go back to a low-carbon (read Third World) lifestyle
That's rather unimaginative. Why go back? That's impossible. We can only go forward to a low-carbon lifestyle. It need not necessarily be like the Third World.
Has anyone actually worked out what life would be like, and how we'd be living in Britain, if we were living a sustainable lifestyle? I really want to know this as part of what I'm currently working on. I think the Transition tools like timelines and backcasting can be really useful here, to work out how we get from where we are, to where we think we need to be. In fact I might even start a new thread on it.
No. You cannot even start to answer that question until you've answered this question: What is the post-fossil-fuel sustainable population of Great Britain? From memory, the answers range between 30 million and 5 million. From our point of view as a civilisation this is the difference between very, very f****d and very, very, very, very, very, very, very f****d. The difference between these two estimates is crucial if the population is 35 million, but irrelevant if the population is 70 million.
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Mean Mr Mustard
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Post by Mean Mr Mustard »

I would have thought that the difference between very, very f****d and very, very, very, very, very, very, very f****d would be an even bigger population 9 months later.

What we need to get to anywhere between 30 and 5 million is to be very much less f****d. Just as well that naughty policeman went abroad, eh.
Last edited by Mean Mr Mustard on 13 Jan 2011, 22:37, edited 1 time in total.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

clv101 wrote:]
Indeed, I was at a conference on Geoengineering at the Royal Society a few months ago and whilst not the scientists were as clear as that, it was the undertone and Bob Watson (Defra Chief Scientific Advisor) in the closing address stated the +2C limit was pretty much impossible now.
...
Of course Watson wasn't allowing for a near term peak extraction rate of fossil fuels or the economic collapse of complex society - these two aspects remain outside the climate change community's scenario analysis.
Going back to page 1 of this thread, we've got maybe 0.7 degrees C of average global surface warming, with a lot of heat gone into the oceans and a lot of CO2 stuck in the atmosphere for the next several centuries.

If we do have near term peak extraction of fossil fuels followed by economic collapse of complex society (kinda best case scenario, if you see what I mean) what temperature are we already locked in to?
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JohnB
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Post by JohnB »

UndercoverElephant wrote:You cannot even start to answer that question until you've answered this question: What is the post-fossil-fuel sustainable population of Great Britain? From memory, the answers range between 30 million and 5 million. From our point of view as a civilisation this is the difference between very, very f****d and very, very, very, very, very, very, very f****d. The difference between these two estimates is crucial if the population is 35 million, but irrelevant if the population is 70 million.
I've been trying to play with the DECC 2050 Pathways calculator spreadsheet, but it won't work with OpenOffice. These are the assumptions it uses:

Code: Select all

Year	Population	Households	GDP (2005 £m)
2007	60,973,000 	26,042,600 	1,322,842 
2010	62,222,403 	26,917,400 	1,424,556 
2015	64,344,156 	28,469,000 	1,611,755 
2020	66,521,962 	30,004,800 	1,823,552 
2025	68,647,528 	31,434,800 	2,063,182 
2030	70,575,666 	32,744,800 	2,334,301 
2035	72,278,230 	34,415,114 	2,641,047 
2040	73,853,253 	36,170,631 	2,988,103 
2045	75,356,458 	38,015,696 	3,380,764 
2050	76,789,483 	39,954,879 	3,825,024 
You didn't use enough verys :shock: :shock:
John

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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

clv101 wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:go back to a low-carbon (read Third World) lifestyle
That's rather unimaginative. Why go back? That's impossible. We can only go forward to a low-carbon lifestyle. It need not necessarily be like the Third World.
So how exactly would it be unlike the Third World?

Take away wealth, and you're left with a Third World lifestyle.

Why on earth is that impossible? The word that occurs to me is inevitable.
Last edited by Ludwig on 13 Jan 2011, 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Mean Mr Mustard
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Post by Mean Mr Mustard »

Biff,

Louth-on-Sea could take all the business from the Med resorts, with Skeggy Mablethorpe and Boston being scuba diving attractions for the elite still able to enjoy seaside hols.
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