Are People Nuts?

[biffvernon]

The shopping phenomenon reveals that people are rich and that the Tory cry for cuts is a fraud, a political lurch to the right rather than an economic necessity.

[Andy Hunt]

It was on the news this morning that despite all this, the economy is sluggish. The very next item was that the oil price has 'shot up' to $92 'because of the cold weather' (????)

Setting the tone for 2011?

[clv101]

The shopping phenomenon reveals that people are rich and that the Tory cry for cuts is a fraud, a political lurch to the right rather than an economic necessity.

It doesn't mean that at all. It means people are nuts, they are spending beyond their means and STILL don't realise what future liabilities they have. Still don't realise how underfunded the state is, how underfunded the public services they take for granted are, still don't realise how underfunded their pensions are. People are nuts.

Just because someone can technically buy £200 of knock down clothes today, doesn't mean they are rich enough to afford to.

[ziggy12345]

The shopping phenomenon reveals that people are rich and that the Tory cry for cuts is a fraud, a political lurch to the right rather than an economic necessity.

Richer than you, but thats not hard...

[biffvernon]

The shopping phenomenon reveals that people are rich and that the Tory cry for cuts is a fraud, a political lurch to the right rather than an economic necessity.

It doesn't mean that at all. It means people are nuts, they are spending beyond their means and STILL don't realise what future liabilities they have. Still don't realise how underfunded the state is, how underfunded the public services they take for granted are, still don't realise how underfunded their pensions are. People are nuts.

Just because someone can technically buy £200 of knock down clothes today, doesn't mean they are rich enough to afford to.

Yes, I thought you might say that
But the fact is that with oil prices where they are and the government running round shouting the economy is broken (because of Labour) and we have to mend it by cutting public spending, a lot of folk still have the ability to go to shops that are full of stuff and walk out carrying the stuff home. Whether they paid for it with gold, real money, funny money or airy promises doesn't alter the fact that the material and energy flow through the economy is about as great as it ever was. Which is just what one would expect at around the Peak Oil plateau.

The fact that this is happening in the UK shows that this corner of the world is still operating under BAU rules.

We can take it for granted that people are nuts.

[kenneal - lagger]

It's part of the final frantic fling for the economy. Spend now 'cos you might never be able to spend like this again! Let's all join the lemmings on their jump over the cliff.

The economy needs us to spend and save, reduce our imports and buy more stuff, be thrifty and reckless because it's about to break and what ever we do cannot save it for more than a few weeks.

[madibe]

wow Ken... that is some prediction for the new year. Within a few weeks? Not that I am disagreeing....just.... phased.

[clv101]

I think Ken means these actions can't keep the show on the road for more than a few weeks longer than otherwise, not that we've only got another few weeks in total?

[Ludwig]

The shopping phenomenon reveals that people are rich and that the Tory cry for cuts is a fraud, a political lurch to the right rather than an economic necessity.

It doesn't mean that at all. It means people are nuts, they are spending beyond their means and STILL don't realise what future liabilities they have. Still don't realise how underfunded the state is, how underfunded the public services they take for granted are, still don't realise how underfunded their pensions are. People are nuts.

Just because someone can technically buy £200 of knock down clothes today, doesn't mean they are rich enough to afford to.

Yes, I thought you might say that
But the fact is that with oil prices where they are and the government running round shouting the economy is broken (because of Labour) and we have to mend it by cutting public spending, a lot of folk still have the ability to go to shops that are full of stuff and walk out carrying the stuff home. Whether they paid for it with gold, real money, funny money or airy promises doesn't alter the fact that the material and energy flow through the economy is about as great as it ever was. Which is just what one would expect at around the Peak Oil plateau.

The fact that this is happening in the UK shows that this corner of the world is still operating under BAU rules.

Yes but Biff, the thing about being in government is that you have to think of the future, not just whether it's BAU at present.

The fact that people have disposable income now doesn't mean that they can provide anywhere near enough in tax revenues to bring the national debt down significantly.

To argue that no cuts were necessary is just obtuse: how would you bring down the national debt?

[contadino]

To argue that no cuts were necessary is just obtuse: how would you bring down the national debt?

Ludwig, that's been discussed nearly as many times as AGW. I'm sure you have time to fit a search in before TEOTWAWKI.

[biffvernon]

Yes but Biff, the thing about being in government is that you have to think of the future, not just whether it's BAU at present.

The fact that people have disposable income now doesn't mean that they can provide anywhere near enough in tax revenues to bring the national debt down significantly.

To argue that no cuts were necessary is just obtuse: how would you bring down the national debt?

I think that my point is that all this shopping shows there is still slack in the system. The government, if it wishes to increase its revenue, could tax people more (the shopping shows they have spare disposable income). The government chooses not to tax more (because that's the nature of right wing Tories) and so cuts public expenditure hiding behind the fig-leaf of national debt.

I'm not saying that national debt is not something that has to be taken into account, just that the government doesn't have to hide behind it while covertly lurching us to the right.

[woodpecker]

Yes but Biff, the thing about being in government is that you have to think of the future, not just whether it's BAU at present.

The fact that people have disposable income now doesn't mean that they can provide anywhere near enough in tax revenues to bring the national debt down significantly.

To argue that no cuts were necessary is just obtuse: how would you bring down the national debt?

I think that my point is that all this shopping shows there is still slack in the system. The government, if it wishes to increase its revenue, could tax people more (the shopping shows they have spare disposable income).

They *think* they have spare disposable income. They just haven't had to see/pay for the credit card bill yet, and the possible mountain of interest rate increases is way ahead (as is the Everest of unemployment). It's about perceptions, not reality.

[biffvernon]

But who are the 'they'?

There are a great many people with lots of disposable income - the people who do have jobs, have incomes greater than expenditures, have excellent pensions, etc. These are the people who go shopping.

The poor, the marginalised, the dispossessed, they can be safely ignored, for now. Economic collapse will be gradual, affecting minorities of nations and minorities within nations. Power, influence and control reside with the rich.

[woodpecker]

http://www.moneybasics.co.uk/en/resourc ... ation.html

[biffvernon]

Hmmm...data regarding lending and borrowing, a measure of the size and activity of the economy, but how does this translate to information?