How do we overcome BANANA?
Moderator: Peak Moderation
How do we overcome BANANA?
Question posed at a meeting last night (context was a Durham Uni lecturer promoting Wind energy to an environment group).
I suggested the dramatic (if impractical) approach of killing the housing market; I believe people's obsession over their property price is a strong NIMBY driver (in fact I have an article from a Devon newspaper to that effect, some old woman concerned she wouldn't be able to sell her house). I got asked if I am an Anarchist! (perhaps I should have responded "No but I'm a firestarter" ). I would love this obsession to become broken (and any efforts towards relocalisation won't happen until such time either).
Other approaches I guess could be:
1) Build projects on a small scale, so the locals "get used" to it, and expand later.
2) Involve locals financially, so they get some income from what is essentially resource extraction from their back yard. Windfarm co-ops go some way toward this.
3) Educate them using methods such as End of Suburbia showings.
4) Wait for or pressure the Government into introducing draconian planning laws.
Other ideas?
I suggested the dramatic (if impractical) approach of killing the housing market; I believe people's obsession over their property price is a strong NIMBY driver (in fact I have an article from a Devon newspaper to that effect, some old woman concerned she wouldn't be able to sell her house). I got asked if I am an Anarchist! (perhaps I should have responded "No but I'm a firestarter" ). I would love this obsession to become broken (and any efforts towards relocalisation won't happen until such time either).
Other approaches I guess could be:
1) Build projects on a small scale, so the locals "get used" to it, and expand later.
2) Involve locals financially, so they get some income from what is essentially resource extraction from their back yard. Windfarm co-ops go some way toward this.
3) Educate them using methods such as End of Suburbia showings.
4) Wait for or pressure the Government into introducing draconian planning laws.
Other ideas?
Olduvai Theory (Updated) (Reviewed)
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
I think the BANANA problem is simply one of people not recognising the need to build anything. I mean we didn?t need wind turbines over the last 20 years so why do we need them over the next 20 years? If people really understood the UK energy gap I think a lot of the UK BANANA mentality would evaporate.
So my solution is to educate people to such an extent that they understand the next 20 years won?t reflect the last 20 years ? we can?t just continue to run the existing coal, gas and nuclear plant. The same policies that worked before won?t work going forward. Once that point is understood, we can have a sensible debate about what part wind plays in the future.
Planning laws should certainly be changed though - we never had this kind of trouble building all the mobile phone masts!
So my solution is to educate people to such an extent that they understand the next 20 years won?t reflect the last 20 years ? we can?t just continue to run the existing coal, gas and nuclear plant. The same policies that worked before won?t work going forward. Once that point is understood, we can have a sensible debate about what part wind plays in the future.
Planning laws should certainly be changed though - we never had this kind of trouble building all the mobile phone masts!
Bandi -
the rational solution is surely to recognize that mega-wind projects arouse the antipathy of those who view the industrialization of the countryside and the fragmentation of landscape as very serious errors ?
In this light, isn't it time to evaluate the alternative resources that may attract widespread support, rather than merely serving the nuclear lobby's interests by arousing division between the sustainable energies' natural supporters ?
This is not to deny the relevance of appropriate scale wind turbines, (which may be equated with tree-hight).
Rather it is thus time to look at deploying alternatives such as Coppice & Standards Forestry for Energy - with its potential yields of firewood, charcoal, woodgas, methanol, power-on-demand and surplus heat.
Beside the massive and growing public support for tree-planting (to the extent that frauds such as Future Forests are flourishing) for this option the BANANA issue will be readily offset by siting village-scale wood-refineries to be entirely hidden within forestry.
From this perspective, given that the UK has around 30,000 sq mls of de-forested upland moors and marginal sheep pasture, Wind offers a rather lower practical potential supply, solely of intermittent power, and already has strong commercial clout for its support.
Surely activists' time would thus be far more productively spent in promoting land-use options such as CSFE ?
regards,
Bill
the rational solution is surely to recognize that mega-wind projects arouse the antipathy of those who view the industrialization of the countryside and the fragmentation of landscape as very serious errors ?
In this light, isn't it time to evaluate the alternative resources that may attract widespread support, rather than merely serving the nuclear lobby's interests by arousing division between the sustainable energies' natural supporters ?
This is not to deny the relevance of appropriate scale wind turbines, (which may be equated with tree-hight).
Rather it is thus time to look at deploying alternatives such as Coppice & Standards Forestry for Energy - with its potential yields of firewood, charcoal, woodgas, methanol, power-on-demand and surplus heat.
Beside the massive and growing public support for tree-planting (to the extent that frauds such as Future Forests are flourishing) for this option the BANANA issue will be readily offset by siting village-scale wood-refineries to be entirely hidden within forestry.
From this perspective, given that the UK has around 30,000 sq mls of de-forested upland moors and marginal sheep pasture, Wind offers a rather lower practical potential supply, solely of intermittent power, and already has strong commercial clout for its support.
Surely activists' time would thus be far more productively spent in promoting land-use options such as CSFE ?
regards,
Bill
People who oppose renewables usually support the Nuclear Fission path, with the misguided view that it is "CO2-Free" fed by a total lack of understanding about the fuel cycle.Billhook wrote:...the alternative resources that may attract widespread support...
Idea number (5) Debunk all the disinformation being spread.
I got quite depressed at last night's meeting whereby both the lecturer and most of the audience seemed to think this way. Even one poor soul thought that Nuclear and Wind could support one another, despite being told that Nuclear stations cannot vary their output.
Today I read a January edition of a smallholding magazine, which contained a letter from some woman who stated that Wind energy "doesn't save any CO2" amongst the usual lie that fossil plant has to be run "in spinning reserve".
Olduvai Theory (Updated) (Reviewed)
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
One solution could be to give locals their choice of generating capacity - that is, have localised grids and communities can choose their source of electricity, be it a nuclear power station, wind farm, wood fuel CHP plant etc etc.
It could be interesting to see whether the anti-wind farm lobby would be happy with a nuke plant next to their kids' primary school!
As for trees - there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't have a wind farm with trees between the turbines. The footprint of a turbine is very small.
Some Councils have schemes where you can pay to have a tree planted outside your house, which will be maintained by the Council. Could come in handy if you needed to lop a few branches off for heat one winter!
It could be interesting to see whether the anti-wind farm lobby would be happy with a nuke plant next to their kids' primary school!
As for trees - there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't have a wind farm with trees between the turbines. The footprint of a turbine is very small.
Some Councils have schemes where you can pay to have a tree planted outside your house, which will be maintained by the Council. Could come in handy if you needed to lop a few branches off for heat one winter!
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
The popularity of something with the general population is no guarantee of its success. Over 70% of the UK population support the building of on-shore wind farms.given that the UK has around 30,000 sq mls of de-forested upland moors and marginal sheep pasture
I'm sure the anti-wind lobby would be equally vociferous about the destruction of unique acid-soil moorland with its unique flora and fauna. Trees would no doubt spoil the breathtaking barren beauty of that peaceful heathery domain, replacing it with a homogenous green canopy. And then there's all that heavy plant coming and going, loaded up with logs and the like . . .
I think the sheep farmers would probably rather have wind turbines on their land - it certainly seems to be the case in Wales!
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
Andy -
Sadly you're misinformed about conmingling Onshore wind and CSFE, since the turbulence caused by a forested land surface
decreases turbines' yield significantly compared to barren moorland.
Thus siting Windpower Onshore effectively sterilizes the land against reforestation - commercial 'rights' being what thay have become.
Any future resistance to sustainable reforestation will predictably depend on
1/. the mode of forestry - for instance, exotic conifer cohort pulpwood regimes, planted against the contour, are already highly unpopular -
what is required is not, as you suggest, featurless continuous deciduous canopy,
but the heterogenous mozaic of coppice plots being regrown on moderate and long cycles withing a matrix of standards shelter belts.
2/. integrating reforestation to utilize wholly unproductive land first, for instance the large areas of mollinia (a near inedible invasive grass)
and to provide shelter and nutrients to decent high sheep pasture;
3/. minimizing feedstock haulage by establishing village scale wood refineries within woodland that are supplied by local forestry resources within 3 mls or less,
and also on extending the longstanding FC practice of using working horses for extraction on steep or vulnerable soils;
4/. a strong public education campaign as to the PO & GW motivations plus the local benefits of local energy security, rural employment,
exceptional biodiversity, local hydrocycle moderation, etc.;
5/. an outright recognition that while this will be a partial restoration of Britain's natural forest cover,
it will not aim to occupy every last bit of high moorland ecology by any means.
Given the staunch opposition among most Welsh farmers to Onshore Wind, it would appear that you are as misinformed about their interests
as Bandidoz seems to be about the anti-wind lobby in general being opposed to renewables.
I've seen no evidence for such an assertion.
I am at present compiling a report on the prospects of converting much of our local upland commons into what is technically called a "Woodland Pasture",
producing both fuel and better grazing and better biodiversity - which is getting much interest and encouragement from the commoners.
I think it is about time that those who don't have a financial interest in their vociferous support for the imposition of Onshore Wind should step back and see
a/. to what extent there are patently preferable options, and
b/. to what extent their idealism is being used cynically by the nuclear lobby to maintain the divisive national focus on Onshore Wind,
rather than on developing the serious alternatives to nuclear power.
No offence meant, but I rather think you're being had.
regards,
Bill
Sadly you're misinformed about conmingling Onshore wind and CSFE, since the turbulence caused by a forested land surface
decreases turbines' yield significantly compared to barren moorland.
Thus siting Windpower Onshore effectively sterilizes the land against reforestation - commercial 'rights' being what thay have become.
Any future resistance to sustainable reforestation will predictably depend on
1/. the mode of forestry - for instance, exotic conifer cohort pulpwood regimes, planted against the contour, are already highly unpopular -
what is required is not, as you suggest, featurless continuous deciduous canopy,
but the heterogenous mozaic of coppice plots being regrown on moderate and long cycles withing a matrix of standards shelter belts.
2/. integrating reforestation to utilize wholly unproductive land first, for instance the large areas of mollinia (a near inedible invasive grass)
and to provide shelter and nutrients to decent high sheep pasture;
3/. minimizing feedstock haulage by establishing village scale wood refineries within woodland that are supplied by local forestry resources within 3 mls or less,
and also on extending the longstanding FC practice of using working horses for extraction on steep or vulnerable soils;
4/. a strong public education campaign as to the PO & GW motivations plus the local benefits of local energy security, rural employment,
exceptional biodiversity, local hydrocycle moderation, etc.;
5/. an outright recognition that while this will be a partial restoration of Britain's natural forest cover,
it will not aim to occupy every last bit of high moorland ecology by any means.
Given the staunch opposition among most Welsh farmers to Onshore Wind, it would appear that you are as misinformed about their interests
as Bandidoz seems to be about the anti-wind lobby in general being opposed to renewables.
I've seen no evidence for such an assertion.
I am at present compiling a report on the prospects of converting much of our local upland commons into what is technically called a "Woodland Pasture",
producing both fuel and better grazing and better biodiversity - which is getting much interest and encouragement from the commoners.
I think it is about time that those who don't have a financial interest in their vociferous support for the imposition of Onshore Wind should step back and see
a/. to what extent there are patently preferable options, and
b/. to what extent their idealism is being used cynically by the nuclear lobby to maintain the divisive national focus on Onshore Wind,
rather than on developing the serious alternatives to nuclear power.
No offence meant, but I rather think you're being had.
regards,
Bill
Check this:
http://www.windpowerphotos.com/Vdec02w/index.htm
N?sudden on the island of Gotland. I spend time in the vicinity in the summers. I think they are absolutely beautiful! You should hear them, it's pure music!
How could the landscape become so littered with wind turbines then? Violent government interference? Nops. Just eased up the planning regulations for the area. But did not the locals protest? Not one second! They immediately realised the potential. The local farmers scrambled to build wind turbines. Now they OWN wind turbines and they SELL electricity earning real MONEY.
There is a piece of history in this also: Vindmills were used for milling grain for hundreds of years on this island. Just like in Denmark and the Netherlands. They are used to using the wind.
http://www.windpowerphotos.com/Vdec02w/index.htm
N?sudden on the island of Gotland. I spend time in the vicinity in the summers. I think they are absolutely beautiful! You should hear them, it's pure music!
How could the landscape become so littered with wind turbines then? Violent government interference? Nops. Just eased up the planning regulations for the area. But did not the locals protest? Not one second! They immediately realised the potential. The local farmers scrambled to build wind turbines. Now they OWN wind turbines and they SELL electricity earning real MONEY.
There is a piece of history in this also: Vindmills were used for milling grain for hundreds of years on this island. Just like in Denmark and the Netherlands. They are used to using the wind.
No offence meant Bill, but I think you have misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that I was objecting to forestry - I was saying that people would object to forestry in the same way they object to wind farms, using the same flawed logic. For example: "wind farms are a threat to birds". What is the biggest threat to British birds? Climate change. "Forestry is a threat to moorland". What is the biggest threat to moorland? Climate change. See where I am coming from?No offence meant, but I rather think you're being had.
I am happy to consider all options; you however have made up your mind to exclude wind farms from your consideration. Maybe you have a financial interest in forestry - I don't know.
I have not been 'had' because I am not favouring one option over another, contrary to your suggestion - I believe that every instance or location will have its own ideal solution. What YOU need to do is think beyond your own prejudices and opinions and consider all the options on the table. It is accepted wisdom that a mix of technologies is desirable.
Your suggestion that the wind farm lobby are biased by financial interest, but that any biomass projects would not be susceptible to the same kind of bias amazes me. Are you suggesting that proponents of biomass are all angels, and immune from being swayed by financial considerations?
Your suggestion that Welsh farmers are 'against' wind farms is ridiculous - there are more wind farms on Welsh hilltops than anywhere else in Britain, and the farmers are doing very nicely out of having them there, thankyou very much - no-one is forcing them to have them there. Wales is STILL the only country in the world to have Sustainable Development written into its constitution, and is a world leader in renewable energy generation.
At the time of writing, the wind generation industry have proved that they can deliver - I sincerely wish the same could be said of the forestry industry. Until such time as people pull their fingers out and implement the kind of measures you are suggesting, wind will have the advantage when it comes to green energy generation.
So maybe you can tell us exactly WHAT IS BEING DONE along the lines you are suggesting? Personally, I have paid to have a few trees planted in Scotland. Not much, I admit - but it's something, at least. I heat my home with wood and solar. I get my electricity (indirectly) from an off-shore wind farm. How about you - how do you heat your home? Gas? What's your electricity tarriff? Nuclear? Coal?
Maybe you can tell us how electricity generation from wood compares to wind in terms of carbon emissions? Carbon neutral is not the same as zero carbon, is it? How about the embodied energy of a wood power station - its construction, transport of the wood fuel etc? How does that compare to wind turbines?
I hear you banging on about wood, Bill - and I'm all in favour of it, as part of the mix. Indeed - I use it myself, along with wind and solar. I just don't think that it is the be-all-and-end-all solution to our problems, that's all. OK?
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
Yeap, very nice. I was there a few years a good and got my supply of picsMacG wrote: N?sudden on the island of Gotland.
Just through in my two pennies worth. There is no ?one? solution. There really needs to be a mixture of measures which includes wind and forestry etc. as well as means to reduce energy usage. I would also say that my measures taken should be more local and involve local communities so that can take an interest in what going on rather than have a solution forced upon people from people far away.
The only future we have is the one we make!
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For interest: Wales has around 21 onshore wind farms currently operational. England has around 42.
Land area of Wales - 20761 km2. Land area of England - 130422km2
So Wales has one wind farm serving each 990km2 (approx), and England has one wind farm serving each 3105km2. This means that Wales has 3 times more wind farms per km2 than England - something which would suggest they are popular there.
In recent times, applications for wind farms in Wales have been less successful, but this is probably simply due to saturation. They still provide a major proportion of Welsh electricity - 77% of the Welsh population are in favour of wind farms, and by 2010 it is planned that 1 in 5 Welsh homes will use electricity from wind farms.
Land area of Wales - 20761 km2. Land area of England - 130422km2
So Wales has one wind farm serving each 990km2 (approx), and England has one wind farm serving each 3105km2. This means that Wales has 3 times more wind farms per km2 than England - something which would suggest they are popular there.
In recent times, applications for wind farms in Wales have been less successful, but this is probably simply due to saturation. They still provide a major proportion of Welsh electricity - 77% of the Welsh population are in favour of wind farms, and by 2010 it is planned that 1 in 5 Welsh homes will use electricity from wind farms.
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
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clv101 wrote:The most appropriate height wind turbines are in excess of 100m - tree height structures seem to be the most inappropriate... I guess it all depends on ones point of view!
Tree height sounds just right for a turbine.The tallest living tree stands at 112 meters (367 feet, 6 in.). It is a Mendocino Tree, a coast redwood (Sequoia sempervirens) found at Montgomery State Reserve near Ukiah, California, USA. It is estimated to be over 1000 years old. The tree was last measured in September 1998, and was also found to have a diameter of 3.14 m. (10 ft. 4 in.). It was declared the tallest tree in 1996.
Moorland is a valuable ecosystem in itself, supporting many flora and fauna which would otherwise be extinct on these islands. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a few wind farms on hilltops - the ones already built, and a few more (hopefully one near me!), which would preserve those valuable habitats. The rest of the uplands could be reforested to provide domestic heating fuel (probably the most important use), building materials, a carbon sink, a biodiversity haven, and feedstock for municipal CHP schemes.the turbulence caused by a forested land surface
decreases turbines' yield significantly compared to barren moorland.
Thus siting Windpower Onshore effectively sterilizes the land against reforestation
If there was enough (which I'm not sure there would be), it could even produce some methanol for transport fuel, as you suggest - although I'm not sure there will be much demand for transport fuel once the mass manufacture of cars becomes unsustainable.
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
Of course we didn't , Lord Vernon of Monmouth. Where a ginormous profit is immediately visible, things get done quickly. 'Consultancy fees' and 'loans' are the WD40 of those little sticky patches like awkward 'outdated' regulations and over zealous planning officials. After all, we do have one of the best democracies money can buy.clv101 wrote:
Planning laws should certainly be changed though - we never had this kind of trouble building all the mobile phone masts!
If you could come up with a crafty scheme to convert the concept of windmills into a large potential pile of National Family Silver, money would be attracted like flies to a fresh cowpat, laws would be changed as neccessary, and it would all happen toute suite. Gordon Brown would then sell it all off to the highest bidders.
A convincing case for the huge future profitablity of renewable energy is what is mainly required, and that partly involves, I'd say, a black propaganda job against gas and coal aimed at the major sources of capital, not the general public. They have to be convinced that in the medium and long term both those are going to be losers.