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For threads primarily discussing Climate Change (particularly in relation to Peak Oil)

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DominicJ
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Post by DominicJ »

I make no secret of the fact that I dont believe human carbon emissions are changing the environment, and its simply because I've seen no evidence to that end.
Then you must have had your head buried in sand for the last ten years.
So rather provide this indisputable evidence, you accuse me of ignorance.
When you actualy get access to some real science, its invariably rotten.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/08/t ... rwin-zero/
Now, it could of course be that there is a perfectly reasonable reason why these adjustments were made.
Mmmmm. Propaganda Pie!!! Tastes good, yah?
Again, no attempt to dispute the evidence, just abuse
Biff is correct. You are a classic example of a climate change denialist.
Yawn, and your the perfect example of a deluded fanatic.

Perhaps instead of trading insults, you could arrive with some evidence?


Once again, I've seen many press releases, but no evidence, can you provide evidence?
If you cant, then why do I have my head buried in the sand, repetition does not create truth.
I'm a realist, not a hippie
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

DominicJ wrote:
Again, no attempt to dispute the evidence, just abuse

That is because I am not willing to engage in an exercise whereby people like you try to "muddy the waters" enough for people to think there is a genuine debate to be had when in fact there is not. For exactly the same reason, I do not argue with creationists. I just tell them they are wrong. The creationists know they can't ever win that debate. The only purpose of continuing to argue is to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of those who might be influenced.

The (serious) debate about human-created climate change via the release of greenhouse gases was OVER at least ten years ago. Apart from anything else, we know enough about the physics involved to be able to say as an absolute certainty that releasing large quantities of greenhouse gases will destabilise the climate. It would be a physics-busting miracle if it did not. And then there's the small matter of both the poles warming by several degrees over the past 20 years.

This is the last I will say on the matter here. If other people are silly enough to argue with you, that is their business.
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DominicJ
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Post by DominicJ »

That is because I am not willing to engage in an exercise whereby people like you try to "muddy the waters" enough for people to think there is a genuine debate to be had when in fact there is not. For exactly the same reason, I do not argue with creationists. I just tell them they are wrong. The creationists know they can't ever win that debate. The only purpose of continuing to argue is to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of those who might be influenced.
I've debated with and converted an Intelligent Designer. Wasnt hard, I had facts, examples, experiments.
He didnt agree that it disproved God, but he happily accepted that life forms can change quite drasticaly over relativly short periods.

The (serious) debate about human-created climate change via the release of greenhouse gases was OVER at least ten years ago.
Yeah, so you say, yet you still cant point at me the grand unifying theory of Climate.
If only other serious scientific debates could be declared over by one group.
Apart from anything else, we know enough about the physics involved to be able to say as an absolute certainty that releasing large quantities of greenhouse gases will destabilise the climate. It would be a physics-busting miracle if it did not.

Yet you still havent actualy proved this, you've just said it. Those are different things.
And then there's the small matter of both the poles warming by several degrees over the past 20 years.
Which others argue is an entirely natural event, and can show periodic warming and cooling over various areas historicaly.
20 years is a pointlessly short space of time to gather records from.
This is the last I will say on the matter here. If other people are silly enough to argue with you, that is their business
I'm a realist, not a hippie
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

DominicJ wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
I'm more interested in discussing just why people think the way they do and the denier/right wing thing is intriguing.
You're not the only one.
You could of course ask us?
Of course, when we come up with a rational reason, you can then default to reasoning we're obviously mentaly deficiant.

I make no secret of the fact that I dont believe human carbon emissions are changing the environment, and its simply because I've seen no evidence to that end.
I've seen no evidence that arsenic is bad for you - but I wouldn't sprinkle it on my supper because I allow my life to be governed by the the body of knowledge that science produces. That same source has made me equally confident of AGW.

So, back to my question. Why are some folk in denial over the danger of CO2 but not of arsenic?
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

DominicJ wrote: you still cant point at me the grand unifying theory of Climate.
Doh! That's the easy bit. Tyndal and Arrhenius sorted that out in the 19th century. It's just the fiddly details that have been worked on since.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote: So, back to my question. Why are some folk in denial over the danger of CO2 but not of arsenic?
We all know the answer that, Biff. Money makes the world go round. If you're not willing to pay the price of the solution, then you must deny the problem exists.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Hmmm...that explains the actions of corporations and individuals with vested interests but it doesn't explain the thinking of people such as dominic who probably has no mere to gain or lose than you and I.
snow hope
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Post by snow hope »

biffvernon wrote:Hmmm...that explains the actions of corporations and individuals with vested interests but it doesn't explain the thinking of people such as dominic who probably has no mere to gain or lose than you and I.
That's right it doesn't, so maybe there is a another reason why some people are not convinced of the AGW Theory?

And as for saying the argument was over 10 years ago, rather a disappointing argument, I expected more... :(
Real money is gold and silver
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Andy Hunt
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Post by Andy Hunt »

biffvernon wrote:Hmmm...that explains the actions of corporations and individuals with vested interests but it doesn't explain the thinking of people such as dominic who probably has no mere to gain or lose than you and I.
Maybe he likes his long haul holidays in the sun.
Andy Hunt
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Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth. :roll:
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

snow hope wrote: That's right it doesn't, so maybe there is a another reason why some people are not convinced of the AGW Theory?

And as for saying the argument was over 10 years ago, rather a disappointing argument, I expected more... :(
So what is it? You tell me. Do you go on long haul holidays in the sun? The argument, at least amongst real climate scientists, was over way before 10 years ago if there ever was an argument. The persistent argument has been between the specialists and the laity.

Why are some people are not convinced of AGW when they accept pretty much everything else that science tell them?
contadino
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Post by contadino »

biffvernon wrote:Why are some people are not convinced of AGW when they accept pretty much everything else that science tell them?
It's not that they're in denial about AGW, it's more about guilt-free pollution. If, somehow, a person can find an excuse to continue driving around as they were before, keep buying tat from abroad, keep flying from country to country, then they'll continue doing so.

I was talking to someone about exported pollution a few weeks ago. He didn't accept any responsibility for, for example, China's pollution, because "that's their problem, not mine. If they want to stop making stuff for export they can."
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

biffvernon wrote:Why are some people are not convinced of AGW when they accept pretty much everything else that science tell them?
That's a good question. In general 'we' accept pretty much everything science tells us, even though an awful lot of it remains highly uncertain. Medical science is a good example of this, but when it comes to climate science everyone seem able to draw their own conclusions, quite happy to suggest the professor's bonkers. This simply doesn't happen in physics, health, engineering etc, why climate science?
MacG
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Post by MacG »

biffvernon wrote:Why are some people are not convinced of AGW when they accept pretty much everything else that science tell them?
Dear Sir,

Could you consider lowering yourself to such a level that you provide a link to the climate models used by the IPCC? Not a blog, please, but a real peer reviewed journal. I have access to all library services needed to retreive a copy if you just provide a reference.

Sincerely
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Andy Hunt
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Post by Andy Hunt »

contadino wrote:
biffvernon wrote:Why are some people are not convinced of AGW when they accept pretty much everything else that science tell them?
It's not that they're in denial about AGW, it's more about guilt-free pollution. If, somehow, a person can find an excuse to continue driving around as they were before, keep buying tat from abroad, keep flying from country to country, then they'll continue doing so.
Nail on head. It's much easier to shape your view on climate change around your lifestyle than vice versa.
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth. :roll:
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

MacG wrote:Could you consider lowering yourself to such a level that you provide a link to the climate models used by the IPCC?
I linked you to all the climate models the IPCC used, their names and developing organisations weeks ago. Let me see if I can find the post...

Here:
clv101 wrote:
MacG wrote:
caspian wrote:Haha - a climate denier accusing a "warmist" of being aggressive. Hilarious! Pot, meet kettle.

And, no, I won't run around fetching evidence for you. You can do it yourself. Classic denier technique that - keep the other side busy collating stuff for you, even though you guys aren't remotely interested in the evidence. No wonder the UEA scientists were so driven to distraction by all the clowns wasting their time.
Hmm... I am supposed to find the evidence for your pet theory? While you dont have to prove anything? I am just supposed to belive your statements? Dont you find the reasoning a bit... eh... odd?

Please, if I ask as nice as I can? Just a link? Please?
The point is that it's not for caspian to produce the models for you. Just a few minutes of research will provide you with the names of the models IPCC used, WG1, Chapter 8 is where to start. You can then approach each organisation for further detail on their models. You can ask for the software, the Met Office even produce a low spatial resolution GCM but will the full physics of HadCM3 that will run on regular (top end multi-core) systems called FAMOUS (FAst Met Office / UK Universities Simulator).
From here you can do you own leg work.
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