Spain

[emordnilap]

Maybe the strategy should be to realise that growth isn't a strategy any more.

Agreed. I think that makes, oooo, three, possibly four, of us. "A good start is half the work". Not.

[Cabrone]

Maybe the strategy should be to realise that growth isn't a strategy any more.

That's one option but it's not one I can see the human race pursuing.

The other option is to grow within fixed physical limits i.e. get a lot smarter and use what you have a lot more efficiently.

More brain, less brawn.

[PS_RalphW]

The markets are getting greedy. The day after they get their pound of flesh from Ireland, they are turning the screws on Spain/Portugal. Their debt has lower rating than Vietnam.

Euro and Yen down, Sterling and Dollar up, oil unchanged (in dollars).

It is an economic last man standing policy, and it is accelerating. It was a year between Iceland and Greece, three months until Ireland. Three weeks before the next one? Ireland has about 3 years to come up with the cash, or they go under anyway. Three more years to squeeze the tax payer and raid the pension funds.

[contadino]

The markets are getting greedy.

Er...I think they did that sometime in 2002, and there's been no respite since. The only difference is that they're no longer trying to hide their activities.

[Lord Beria3]

Critics of growth don't seem to understand that because of the massive debts which Spain among other nations have developed, need growth to service its debt interests and ensure that it doesn't go bankrupt.

Now, if you can provide a answer to this question please do. I assume that to end growth (is that even possible?) the global investors and banks would flee the Spanish financial system leading to its collapse.

A spanish government would than have to default on all its debts, nationalise the banking system. In a globalised world that would lead to a massive depression as the wealthy and corporations fled Spain and unemployment skyrockets.

I assume that some kind of green-socalist dictatorship would need to be formed, force the mass unemployed to grow food in the country and strict rationing (along the lines of War Socialism) imposed to ensure that nobody wasted energy/resources.

The country would still need to import critical resources (to sustain some kind of society) so this green-socialist government would have to find some commodity to export. What?

[Catweazle]

Critics of growth don't seem to understand that because of the massive debts which Spain among other nations have developed, need growth to service its debt interests and ensure that it doesn't go bankrupt.

Now, if you can provide a answer to this question please do. I assume that to end growth (is that even possible?) the global investors and banks would flee the Spanish financial system leading to its collapse.

A spanish government would than have to default on all its debts, nationalise the banking system. In a globalised world that would lead to a massive depression as the wealthy and corporations fled Spain and unemployment skyrockets.

I assume that some kind of green-socalist dictatorship would need to be formed, force the mass unemployed to grow food in the country and strict rationing (along the lines of War Socialism) imposed to ensure that nobody wasted energy/resources.

The country would still need to import critical resources (to sustain some kind of society) so this green-socialist government would have to find some commodity to export. What?

We've recently seen that the letters in a word can be arranged by the brain into the correct order, enabling us to understand the meaning.

It doesn't work with whole paragraphs though, what are you trying to say ?

[contadino]

Critics of growth don't seem to understand that because of the massive debts which Spain among other nations have developed, need growth to service its debt interests and ensure that it doesn't go bankrupt.

Now, if you can provide a answer to this question please do. I assume that to end growth (is that even possible?) the global investors and banks would flee the Spanish financial system leading to its collapse.

A spanish government would than have to default on all its debts, nationalise the banking system. In a globalised world that would lead to a massive depression as the wealthy and corporations fled Spain and unemployment skyrockets.

I assume that some kind of green-socalist dictatorship would need to be formed, force the mass unemployed to grow food in the country and strict rationing (along the lines of War Socialism) imposed to ensure that nobody wasted energy/resources.

The country would still need to import critical resources (to sustain some kind of society) so this green-socialist government would have to find some commodity to export. What?

Oh where to start, and is it really worth it?

What does Spain export now, and why would defaulting prevent them from carrying on exporting it?

And a broad answer to your overall, meandering, question: Look at what happened in Argentina.

[emordnilap]

How's about re-defining growth? In such a way that it doesn't depend upon spending more than you earn?

[JohnB]

How's about re-defining growth? In such a way that it doesn't depend upon spending more than you earn?

That's so old fashioned. It will never catch on .
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

[emordnilap]

How's about re-defining growth? In such a way that it doesn't depend upon spending more than you earn?

That's so old fashioned. It will never catch on .
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

It was a serious question though. People are more worried about their individual futures and how to get back to a house price bubble, how to increase consumption and wages, how to get a new car, as well as simply keeping the job, than anything long-term.

It's my belief that growth as experienced over the last few decades is dead but won't lie down and, until a significant number of people re-define and accept an alternative, we're not going to move on.

So come on, how do we get from here to there? I think the first stage has to be cancellation of debt.

[contadino]

So come on, how do we get from here to there? I think the first stage has to be cancellation of debt.

Firstly, I should say that I'm not really into this whole "growth is bad" mantra. Growth can be a good thing.

However, if you want a no growth economy, the 1st step could be to close the exchanges where speculators gamble. So that's the stock exchange, LIFFE, LME, LCE, etc..*

Then ban all ownership of company shares for people who do not work for that company.

Then implement carbon taxation for everything.

However, in doing so, you'd stimulate growth in the regulatory sector...


* Of course, you could opt for a halfway house, and just ban trading of non-physical assets. This would close the futures markets, but still enable standing point positions, allowing the likes of Unilever, P&G etc.. to still buy the crap they put into their 'products.' Doing so would have avoided the CDO con, as future repayments on sub-prime loans are not physical assets.

[Lord Beria3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of ... indicators

Its been growing for over a decade now since the default, so Im not sure thats a good example.

The basic problem is that firstly in a free market the government can't ban growth. Its nonsensical.

Secondly without growth you either stagnate or you contract... but you can't permamently stagnate, it goes against basic economics.

For me, ending growth has to include ending the capitalist system and creating a green-socialist centrally planned dictatorship.

A alternative might be crafting a more sustainable low-growth model instead of the boom and bust and high debt. That is something I can support, but you still need to deal with the problem of the massive debts build up from previous debt fuelled boom and busts.

[Potemkin Villager]

The country would still need to import critical resources (to sustain some kind of society) so this green-socialist government would have to find some commodity to export. What?

Well people spring to mind! Maybe they could sail off to conquer
the new world and discover riches and mountains of GOLD beyond their wildest dreams...

[UndercoverElephant]

Critics of growth don't seem to understand that because of the massive debts which Spain among other nations have developed, need growth to service its debt interests and ensure that it doesn't go bankrupt.

Now, if you can provide a answer to this question please do. I assume that to end growth (is that even possible?) the global investors and banks would flee the Spanish financial system leading to its collapse.

A spanish government would than have to default on all its debts, nationalise the banking system. In a globalised world that would lead to a massive depression as the wealthy and corporations fled Spain and unemployment skyrockets.

I assume that some kind of green-socalist dictatorship would need to be formed, force the mass unemployed to grow food in the country and strict rationing (along the lines of War Socialism) imposed to ensure that nobody wasted energy/resources.

The country would still need to import critical resources (to sustain some kind of society) so this green-socialist government would have to find some commodity to export. What?

Soylent green.

[JohnB]

Soylent green.

Banker burgers.