Are we hypocrites?

[contadino]

There is a difference between the availability of oil from Iraq, and the funneling of profits from Iraqi oil, which often gets skimmed over. This thread is a prime example. Oil from Iraq could have been available in the West without the US/UK invasion. The only difference is that:

a) it would have cost more
b) profits would have stayed in the Arab world.

It was not a choice of 'eating bark in 10 years' or invading. We could have just paid what they wanted - which AFAIK wasn't extortionate. Instead, now the profits from Iraqi oil come through UK/US companies.

It was a resource war. Or theft, as it is called on a domestic scale.

[Ludwig]

I don't think the American public's response reflects so much on their good will as on their ignorance of the importance of oil.

More a comment on their hypocrisy. As good Christians, all, they don't like to be reminded of the human costs of their lifestyle.

Yes, very true. I think the same applies to many non-Christian liberals, to some extent.

[frank_begbie]

Really you should ask people after or during the crash or die-off because I think most people would say what the CIA man did in my clip , they might not now ask them then

"Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!"
(From "Three Days of the Condor")

Thanks for that. I was just trying to remember the film I'd heard that from.

[Ludwig]

Really you should ask people after or during the crash or die-off because I think most people would say what the CIA man did in my clip , they might not now ask them then

"Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!"
(From "Three Days of the Condor")

Thanks for that. I was just trying to remember the film I'd heard that from.

I've not seen the film, but it was quoted in Michael Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon"

[jonny2mad]

Watch the film its on youtube in bits but its worth seeing otherwise one of my all time favourites

[lurker]

There is a difference between the availability of oil from Iraq, and the funneling of profits from Iraqi oil, which often gets skimmed over. This thread is a prime example. Oil from Iraq could have been available in the West without the US/UK invasion. The only difference is that:

a) it would have cost more
b) profits would have stayed in the Arab world.

It was not a choice of 'eating bark in 10 years' or invading. We could have just paid what they wanted - which AFAIK wasn't extortionate. Instead, now the profits from Iraqi oil come through UK/US companies.

It was a resource war. Or theft, as it is called on a domestic scale.

Yeah surely the huge investment in the cost of the war outweighs any benefit of cheaper oil?

Its it more the profits to be made by war by the "industrial millitary complex"

War as a handy tool used to transfer captial from the general public too private companies?

[MacG]

Really you should ask people after or during the crash or die-off because I think most people would say what the CIA man did in my clip , they might not now ask them then

"Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!"
(From "Three Days of the Condor")

Some lack of logic here. The Iraqi oil had been brought above ground and sold on the world market anyhow. There is no country on this earth that leave oil in the ground if they can bring it up and sell it.

[kenneal - lagger]

.....There is no country on this earth that leave oil in the ground if they can bring it up and sell it.

Ecuador.

[Totally_Baffled]

.....There is no country on this earth that leave oil in the ground if they can bring it up and sell it.

Ecuador.

Give it time......

[Grizzly Mouse]

At the time I thought it was totally stupid and pointless invasion. Invading Iraq for its oil would only work if carried out according to the ancient customs of war with the total extermination or enslavement of the defeated or resisting population. Any operation carried out under the modern humanitarian hearts and minds liberation doctrine is guaranteed to fail except in rare cases such as removing an over recent invading occupier.

[Lord Beria3]

Iraq...

I was opposed to the war on the grounds that

1) invading a country with extreme ethnic/religious tensions and a long history of fighting foreign occupation armies was a only going to provoke decades of bloodshed and civil war

2) Saddam was a threat, but contained, he was useful in containing the Iranians and his WMD was very modest (and we have now found now that even those modest supplies didn't exist!)

3) Saddam was a secular dictator and for strategic reasons the lesser evil was to keep him in charge than risk allowing Islamic fundamentalists take over.

I still stand by those reasons. However, there have been some by-products of the war which have brought some interesting questions.

Firstly, the explosion of violence, the sucide bombings and the civil war between Sunnis and Shias was a brutal wake-up call for the rest of the Arab world - popular support for Al Quida has collapsed and ordinary Arabs are more aware of the dangers of fundamentalism. Ironically, Iraq has ensured that the authoritarian regimes are more stable - because ordinary folk would prefer the stability of a Syrian dictatorship/Saudi monarchy to the anarchy of Iraq.

Secondly, one of the by-products of the war have been to liberate the oil-rich, pro-western and secular Kurds - who are natural allies of the West in the region. This is great news for us. Also, the violence has had the affect of postponing the development of Iraqis still massive cheap oil reserves, ensuring that once they do get developed, they will be key to ensuring the post-peak decline is alot milder than some of the doomers here are predicting.

Finally, I would rather have Americans (a democracy and natural allies of the UK) at the heart of the oil and gas rich Persian Gulf than Iran, China, Russia or some other great power. As the Americans have no intention of leaving, one of the by-products of the war is a permament military presence of the superpower in the region - which should ensure stability in oil production and export for the coming decades.

[contadino]

Iraq...

I was opposed to the war on the grounds that

1) invading a country with extreme ethnic/religious tensions and a long history of fighting foreign occupation armies was a only going to provoke decades of bloodshed and civil war

2) Saddam was a threat, but contained, he was useful in containing the Iranians and his WMD was very modest (and we have now found now that even those modest supplies didn't exist!)

3) Saddam was a secular dictator and for strategic reasons the lesser evil was to keep him in charge than risk allowing Islamic fundamentalists take over.

I still stand by those reasons. However, there have been some by-products of the war which have brought some interesting questions.

Firstly, the explosion of violence, the sucide bombings and the civil war between Sunnis and Shias was a brutal wake-up call for the rest of the Arab world - popular support for Al Quida has collapsed and ordinary Arabs are more aware of the dangers of fundamentalism. Ironically, Iraq has ensured that the authoritarian regimes are more stable - because ordinary folk would prefer the stability of a Syrian dictatorship/Saudi monarchy to the anarchy of Iraq.

Secondly, one of the by-products of the war have been to liberate the oil-rich, pro-western and secular Kurds - who are natural allies of the West in the region. This is great news for us. Also, the violence has had the affect of postponing the development of Iraqis still massive cheap oil reserves, ensuring that once they do get developed, they will be key to ensuring the post-peak decline is alot milder than some of the doomers here are predicting.

Finally, I would rather have Americans (a democracy and natural allies of the UK) at the heart of the oil and gas rich Persian Gulf than Iran, China, Russia or some other great power. As the Americans have no intention of leaving, one of the by-products of the war is a permament military presence of the superpower in the region - which should ensure stability in oil production and export for the coming decades.

Blimey, you're naive.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Imagine if the REAL question had been put to the public: do you want us to raid Iraq for its oil, or do you want to be eating bark in 10 years' time?

But Iraq's oil won't save us from eating bark, will it? So that wasn't the question.

Blair is a spinless lying t**t, (I try not to swear on here but there is no other word that I can substitute here). When I saw him step up behind Idiot Bush I felt sick. If there is a god (which I doubt) they will both burn in hell. If there is no god, I hope they eventually stand trial as war criminals and rot in prison. I can't watch anything on TV showing either of them now in case I smash my TV.

I cannot condone Bliar's actions, even now.


*Edit: I've taken out 2 letters in THAT swear word. I don't like looking at it in print.

[PS_RalphW]

I went on 7 anti war marches including the big one. I badgered my MP with dozens of emails. Eventually she resigned her post and voted against war. She was still kicked out at the next election.

On the day it started I bunked off work to join a sit-in an a major road junction in Cambridge to protest, along with several hundred schoolkids. It lasted several hours, and resulted in a few kids being charged with obstruction. It never got to court. They were from a posh school and their parents would have raised hell of bad publicity.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I went on 7 anti war marches including the big one. I badgered my MP with dozens of emails. Eventually she resigned her post and voted against war. She was still kicked out at the next election.

On the day it started I bunked off work to join a sit-in an a major road junction in Cambridge to protest, along with several hundred schoolkids. It lasted several hours, and resulted in a few kids being charged with obstruction. It never got to court. They were from a posh school and their parents would have raised hell of bad publicity.

I only felt sick and ranted a lot. Hats off to you Ralph.