Does it make sense to tax electric-car drivers by the mile?

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 11 Jul 2010, 13:54

Picture the scene: total generating capacity of UK is about 75 GW, down to 72 at the mo because of various things like Sizewell being offline.

Winter tea-time peak at about 5:30 pm can get up to 60 GW. Fred and Freda bloggs (20 million of them) get home from work at about 5:30 pm and put their cars on to charge. Even at 1 kW per set of wheels (20 GW for the whole fleet), the Grid is going to fall over unless there's some kind of arrangement that puts off the start of charging until late at night (e.g. all cars must be charged on Economy 7).

People are also going to need lockable plug-sockets outdoors: nobody parks their car in their garage any more and can you imagine running a flex through an open window all night in January?

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 11 Jul 2010, 13:59

RenewableCandy wrote:People are also going to need lockable plug-sockets outdoors: nobody parks their car in their garage any more and can you imagine running a flex through an open window all night in January?

That's why houses have central heating. Just turn it up a bit

.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 11 Jul 2010, 14:12

Good idea. Make sure the burglars are nice and warm

.

madibe · Post by **madibe** » 11 Jul 2010, 14:26

LOL... perhaps people will have to stop using garages (if they have one) as oversized junk cupboards! Hey, at least that is what mine is used for.

But, yes...despite being funny, this is the practical concern, something that seems to be overlooked by media, eco-warriors and politicians.

For the majority EV is just not workable unless many issues are confronted and solved. An even then, Lithium, Cobalt and other valuable minerals are not in the abundant supply needed to supply the globe with EV.... 800 million cars in the planet expected to double to 1.6 Billion by 2030 (AS IF!!!!)

http://www.greenbang.com/with-global-ca ... 14284.html

Candy - thanks for looking into it and removing the rose tinted glasses that most seem to wear over this issue.

It is going to be quite an elite that owns EV - fred and freda are more than likely to struggle to get to work - if indeed work exists as we know it in its current form.

At which point electricity will have a much more valuable function...survival.

That, of course, opens up a whole new can of worms...

madibe · Post by **madibe** » 11 Jul 2010, 14:43

To achieve required cuts in oil consumption, a significant percentage of the world automobile fleet of 1 billion
vehicles must be electrified in the coming decade. Ultimately all production, currently 60 Million vehicles per
year, will be replaced with highly electrified vehicles – PHEVs and BEVs.
Analysis of Lithium's geological resource base shows that there is insufficient Lithium available in the Earth's
crust to sustain Electric Vehicle manufacture in the volumes required, based solely on LiIon batteries.
Depletion rates would exceed current oil depletion rates and switch dependency from one diminishing
resource to another. Concentration of supply would create new geopolitical tensions, not reduce them.

and

As the reality of Peak Oil sinks in further, the apparent high performance of the LiIon battery is being carried
over into the future of transportation mobility – the Electric Vehicle in all its variants: EV, PHEV and HEV0.
But is this enthusiasm justified? And could we not be swapping dependence on one depleting natural
resource – oil – for another?
Analysis shows that a world dependent on Lithium for its vehicles could soon face even tighter resource
constraints than we face today with oil.

full article:

http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

I will now shut up

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 11 Jul 2010, 14:52

maudibe wrote:even then, Lithium, Cobalt and other valuable minerals are not in the abundant supply needed to supply the globe with EV....

I don't think we will ever run out of lithium (geologist's hard hat on) but smart meters to smoothly match electricity supply and demand are a no-brainer.

madibe · Post by **madibe** » 12 Jul 2010, 01:37

I dont think we will ever run out of oil... ahem.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 12 Jul 2010, 09:49

Of course there is a finite supply of all minerals, but they have the huge advantage of being recyclable. Something like Lithium, which is expensive to start with, and used largely in large batteries and other concentrated forms, should be recyclable to a very high degree.

We may or may not have enough lithium for unlimited numbers of electric cars, but we will not run out any time soon...

...Actually that does sound rather like oil.

Post by **adam2** » 12 Jul 2010, 10:57

The more doomerish predictions re charging of large numbers of EVs are OTT.
Not every vehicle will be used every day, and many of those that are used daily will have made only short trips and not require a full charge.

Not every IC vehicle will be replaced by EVs, or at least not for decades.

Most would be charged during off peak hours. In the abence of any more sophisticated arrangement, the charging socket would be connected to an off peak supply that would only be energised during economy 7 hours, or equivalent.
The owner would then plug the car in when they return home, and it would start to charge automaticly when the off peak tarrif was available.

Execpt for a short term emergency, there would be no need for the wire to go out of a window. An outdoor socket is easily installed for EV charging by any approved electrician, and but for the part pee police would be a DIY job.
If the car must be charged on a public roadway, then the cable must cross the footpath, which may be prohibited, or a roadside charging point must be installed at apreciable expense.
Charging in a driveway, forecourt or similar private property would be easy.

And finally remember that considerable electric power is used at filling stations, less petrol used=fewer filling stations.
One could charge quite a few EVs with the power used by a filling station.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 12 Jul 2010, 11:16

adam2 wrote:And finally remember that considerable electric power is used at filling stations, less petrol used=fewer filling stations.
One could charge quite a few EVs with the power used by a filling station.

More shops closing in rural areas then, as in many places the local petrol station is the only place for miles where you can buy food.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 12 Jul 2010, 11:38

Pardon my ignorance but what actually happens to the Li in these batteries? Is it merely a catalyst, emerging from battery life in the same state, or does it get bound-to/unbound-from, some other element in a process which needs energy input to reverse?

If the latter, then it can't be recycled, except perhaps by using solar or somesuch as a non-time-critical energy source.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 12 Jul 2010, 13:06

RenewableCandy wrote:Pardon my ignorance but what actually happens to the Li in these batteries? Is it merely a catalyst, emerging from battery life in the same state, or does it get bound-to/unbound-from, some other element in a process which needs energy input to reverse?

If the latter, then it can't be recycled, except perhaps by using solar or somesuch as a non-time-critical energy source.

Transmutation of elements requires one of: alchemy, nuclear fission or nuclear fusion. Because Lithium is a light element, it has potential for nuclear fusion. If we could destroy it that way, we wouldn't need to worry about using it in batteries.

Everything else is chemistry. As long as you are careful and have a reasonable amount of energy to work with, it is endlessly recyclable.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 12 Jul 2010, 13:40

Yes, quite. What I was really asking was, does the LiIon battery need another source of energy in order to extract the Lithium for re-use at the end of battery life? (This is separate from the energy needed to re-charge it). Or do these batteries, at least in theory, never wear out?

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 12 Jul 2010, 15:24

Our friend wikipedia has a whole heap of data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

The lithium is in the electrolyte, as a salt dissolved in an organic solvent.

Different designs use different chemistries.

Over charging or over discharging cause irreversible (with the battery) chemical changes to the lithium, for example to lithium oxide.

Eventually the capacity of the recharge battery declines and it needs to be recycled. It will take a lot of chemical processing and energy to extract the lithium back into the correct salt form sufficiently purely to be re-used in a new battery, but a lot less energy than digging it out of the ground in the first place.

Post by **adam2** » 12 Jul 2010, 15:28

Yes, at the end of battery life the lithium can be extracted and reused to make new batteries.
I donk know how much energy is required for this, but would expect it to be substantial since it is a relatively complicated process. Almost certainly more than that required to simply charge the battery.

Litihum batteries are relatively high technology and are potentialy dangerous if poorly manufactured, misused, or overcharged.

I suspect that in an energy poor future, that lead acid batteries will be used more as they are simple to make and use, and easily recycled.
The rich will no doubt drive expensive high performance EVs powered by lithium batteries, but I suspect the mass market will be more like golf carts, powered by lead acid batteries.
The range would be very limited, but most of us will be travelling less.