Peak Oil and 911

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

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MacG
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Post by MacG »

Tess wrote:Now, a corporation bringing down the towers for insurance purposes... who could ever question that explanation? :shock:
It's not unthinkable. Specially since the buildings seem to have been full of asbest.

On the other hand, it's darn difficult to imagine what the US and the world had looked like and which arguments had worked absent 9/11. That event is such a monumental thing that we cant "think it away". War is serious stuff and not so easy to sell, specially not for a president with weak poll numbers.
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EmptyBee
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Post by EmptyBee »

Tess wrote: Because for that part of the story, I don't see the need for such an atrocity to justify the wars that followed. Why frame bin Laden and a bunch of Saudis when they could have framed Saddam? Hell, they didn't even conveniently find WMDs in Iraq when they went searching and no one could gainsay them. Do you really need to kill 3000 of your own citizens just to get an oil pipeline through afghanistan?

Now, a corporation bringing down the towers for insurance purposes... who could ever question that explanation? :shock:
I think the open ended nature of The War on Terror positively required a nebulous, ill-defined enemy. After all if it could have been limited to Saddam or the Taliban the justifications for the war would have ended in either Afghanistan or Iraq.

The fact that Arab or Islamic militancy of almost any flavour (take the recent Saudi oil threats) gets labelled as 'al-Qaeda' in the absence of any supporting evidence illustrates this clearly enough.

I would disagree that America could have gone on a war footing with such speed and disregard for international opinion without 9/11. I think the level of hysteria would be impossible to sustain without the omnipresent reminder of the threat of terrorism that 9/11 represents in the public consciousness.

Former national security adviser to the Carter administration Zbigniew Brzezinski suggested in his 1998 book The Grand Chessboard that a military mobilisation to meet the US's 'geostrategic imperatives' could be problematic:

"...as America becomes an increasingly multi-cultural society, it may find it more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues, except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat." (The Grand Chessboard p. 211)

The neocon think tank PNAC reached the same conclusion in 2000, in the infamous 'Rebuilding America's Defenses':

"...the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event ? like a
new Pearl Harbor."
Last edited by EmptyBee on 26 Feb 2006, 18:53, edited 2 times in total.
RevdTess
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Post by RevdTess »

MacG wrote: On the other hand, it's darn difficult to imagine what the US and the world had looked like and which arguments had worked absent 9/11. That event is such a monumental thing that we cant "think it away". War is serious stuff and not so easy to sell, specially not for a president with weak poll numbers.
I don't entirely disagree with that.

What bothers me is that the arguments used for going to war with Saddam were so astonishingly weak and unconvincing compared to the justification for going after Osama (faked or otherwise) that one has to wonder what the conspirators in the US govt were playing at (if indeed they exist).
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

Tess wrote:I actually do buy the demolition arguments. I'm not sure where that takes the discussion though.
What do you mean? How can it be that you accept the demolition theory and yet see no point in examining further the whole relationship between 9/11, Bush, Afghanistan, Iraq, terrorism, control of resources, PO, ID cards, population control and so on.

I think it's time you stop playing devil's advocate and start thinking about what it really means to know that 9/11 is a lie and yet how our very history is being shaped by it.

If you accept that certain elements of 9/11 are false then there is no point in discussing the fine detail since that is the speculative part and much harder to prove than the visual evidence which is out there as you've seen.
Tess wrote:Why frame bin Laden and a bunch of Saudis when they could have framed Saddam?
Because Osama bin Laden was supposed to be in Afghanistan and Afghanistan needed to be invaded first in order to remove the Taliban and allow for the construction of a gas pipeline through the country from the Caspian to Pakistan ready for LNG exports. Type Afghanistan, 9/11, gas pipeline in google and see what you get.

The way to frame Saddam was done by creating the WMD bit. That was the conspiracy. They didn't have to plant the weapons because we fell for it anyway, besides, any planted evidence would have had to have been verified by the UN weapons inspectors, a third party not involved in any plot and that could easily have meant exposure of false evidence. This is all of course speculation on my part and why I think you are better off sticking to the visual evidence about 9/11 which you already accept suggests that the official story is flawed.
Last edited by Bozzio on 26 Feb 2006, 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
RevdTess
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Post by RevdTess »

Bozzio wrote:
Tess wrote:I actually do buy the demolition arguments. I'm not sure where that takes the discussion though.
What do you mean? How can it be that you accept the demolition theory and yet see no point in examining further the whole relationship between 9/11, Bush, Afghanistan, Iraq, terrorism, control of resources, PO, ID cards, population control and so on.
Indeed, that's a good question, and I think if you want to be more convincing and sound less like a kook, you should think about that some more :)

These things aren't as obvious as you seem to think.
RevdTess
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Post by RevdTess »

Bozzio wrote:
Tess wrote:Why frame bin Laden and a bunch of Saudis when they could have framed Saddam?
Because Osama bin Laden was supposed to be in Afghanistan and Afghanistan needed to be invaded first in order to remove the Taliban and allow for the construction of a gas pipeline through the country from the Caspian to Pakistan ready for LNG exports.
That strikes me as a weak reason to kill 3000 of your citizens. After all, the planes hitting the towers and pentagon were surely enough? A gas pipeline? Why that one and not all the other potential infrastructure projects? I mean, the cost and benefits are all out of whack here.
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

Tess wrote:Indeed, that's a good question, and I think if you want to be more convincing and sound less like a kook, you should think about that some more
Sound like a kook. You've been reading too many comics. :lol:

The thing is that I have been thinking about it. For about three years. By reading about it I discovered PO and many other associations which have troubled my thoughts.

My personal opinion is that the people of the world could expose 9/11 and change history. Unfortunately that won't happen but at least some of us can try, just as we can try and raise awareness about PO.
Last edited by Bozzio on 26 Feb 2006, 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
RevdTess
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Post by RevdTess »

Bozzio wrote:I think it's time you stop playing devil's advocate and start thinking about what it really means to know that 9/11 is a lie and yet how our very history is being shaped by it.
I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm giving you the opportunity to convince me. Don't get antsy! I think you're doing quite well. I can't make it easy for you though, I do have a brain after all, otherwise I wouldn't be worth convincing.
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

Tess wrote:I can't make it easy for you though, I do have a brain after all, otherwise I wouldn't be worth convincing.
Yes, the force is certainly strong in you and I know my time for convincing your good self is not yet up. :lol:
MacG
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Post by MacG »

Tess wrote:What bothers me is that the arguments used for going to war with Saddam were so astonishingly weak and unconvincing compared to the justification for going after Osama (faked or otherwise) that one has to wonder what the conspirators in the US govt were playing at (if indeed they exist).
Well, here I resort to pure speculation (!).

The arguments for invading Iraq were very weak indeed, specially in the light of what was found. But still they went there. And they are still there!

For a mere mortal standing at the sidelines of all this, it looks like the neocon cabal in Washington are running the script according to the PNAC published on the web. It looks like they have certain goals, but play the actual execution of the script a little by feeling. I think they are astonished by what they have gotten away with and how gullible and passive people have been this far. They might even start to feel a bit invulnerable by now.
RevdTess
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Post by RevdTess »

MacG wrote: For a mere mortal standing at the sidelines of all this, it looks like the neocon cabal in Washington are running the script according to the PNAC published on the web. It looks like they have certain goals, but play the actual execution of the script a little by feeling.
It does look that way.
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EmptyBee
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Post by EmptyBee »

Tess wrote: That strikes me as a weak reason to kill 3000 of your citizens. After all, the planes hitting the towers and pentagon were surely enough? A gas pipeline? Why that one and not all the other potential infrastructure projects? I mean, the cost and benefits are all out of whack here.

I think you need to look at the bigger picture. Try looking at what the neocon foreign policy objectives actually are. They are clearly not limited to individual contracts for Unocal or Haliburton. What we have seen since 9/11 has been the resumption of the Great Game - the battle for American primacy in Eurasia in what can only be described as blatant imperialism.
Given the lacklustre domestic appetite for such foreign adventures, especially since Vietnam, the importance of generating a sense of threat to Americans cannot be understated.

Consider this: in every major conflict over the last century, the US was frequently incapable of carrying public opinion with it without a direct threat to American people (in or out of uniform).

1915: the sinking of the Lusitania.

1941: Pearl Harbour.

1964: The Gulf of Tonkin 'incident'.

If you consider the expectations of the average American following the end of the cold war, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many that anticipated a prolonged war or series of wars overseas.
But here we were barely a decade passed since the collapse of communism being promised a 'war that will not end in our lifetimes'.

I think the weakness of the case for war against Iraq was very tellling - in the sense that it was quite clear that a minority of dissenters was no longer seen as a signficant problem so long as the majority buy into the propagandist vision of the world promulgated since 9/11. Victory is the only justification they felt they needed. Unfortunately the small matter of delivering victory has been problematic, and this is the main reason we've seen something of a retreat in the neocon programme. Not Abu Ghraib, or the lack of WMD.
andyh
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Post by andyh »

Hmmm started reading this thread and then soon wished I hadn't; when in doubt apply Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is typically the correct one.

From my point of view disappointing that a thread which is dedicated to the mother and father of all conspiracy theories should be one of the most active on the site. I dont actually feel it helps the peakoil cause that much, as a recent partial convert to peakoil whom I had convinced to visit the site e-mailed me back to say she thought some of the 'nutty speculation' (her words I hasten to add) here (she was referring to this thread, hence my visit) turned her right off (for the record she is the head of a civil engineering concern, and an architect).
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EmptyBee
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Post by EmptyBee »

andyh wrote:Hmmm started reading this thread and then soon wished I hadn't; when in doubt apply Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is typically the correct one.
Occam's Razor only states that any theory should not needlessly multiply assumptions. If your theory has to ignore inconvenient facts in order to remain simple it no longer agrees with Occam's Razor, regardless of whether those facts lie within the mainstream of politically acceptable thought or outside it.
andyh
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Post by andyh »

A large projectile, weighing several hundred tons, laden with thousands of litres of highly inflamable liquid and travelling at hundreds of kilometers an hour slams into a very tall building; the top floors are rapidly consumed by fire and shortly thereafter the building collapses (all of which is filmed in brilliant technicolour) Do you deduce that the collapse of the building is due to

a) the collision of the projectile with said building

or

b) is due to some multi level highly complex conspiracy theory involving the prepared planting of explosives and their subsequent ignition in said building and the participation of numerous agencies both at the local and National level

And your telling me Occams razor doesnt apply here?

One thing that always make me laugh about these sort of theories is that the evidence of gross incompetence whenever governments get up to dirty tricks are all around us; think of US attempts over 30 years to kill Castro, think of their ham-fisted interferences in Latin American countries, think of the French blowing up Rainbow Warrior. At one level we are encouraged to laugh at the yanks (in particular) because of their obvious incompetences (and boy do we laugh along), and then at another level we are to believe that no in actual fact there are super secret, super efficient forces which never get found out, never leak and always get things right, and are constantly succeeding in 9/11 sort of episodes. Yeah right.
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