[This is an edited re-post of a topic that existed before the forums were hit by a virus in June 2005. Please feel free to add comments at the end, however if you are reading this soon after it was posted, it's likely that more old' replies will be added in the next hour or so and therefore please wait before replying a) to see if your point will be covered and b) to let the original sequence of posts make sense. Thank you]
Just wondered what response folk get when they introduce the concept of peak oil to freinds/colleagues. My experiences may or may not be typical. I am an ex-scientist who will shortly be emigrating to NZ, who in the final year here did a chef's course. On the course in my class are a mix of mature individuals most of whom I would describe as pretty bright, and who have had successful first careers. They range from journalists, successful entrepeuners, through to IT specialists. With 1 partial exception they show very little interest in the concept, and indeed now regard me bringing up the subject as 'boring etc'. Most seem to view the idea as either not a problem or something that will be dealt with appropriately. Its worrying - I would regard myself as a good communicator (20 years lecturing/teaching etc), so hopefully its not because I am indeed a bore on the subject. So far out of a wide circle of friends etc I have managed to get 2 folk (one of whom is my wife!) convinced there is a problem.....
[PV post] Peoples responses to peak oil
Moderator: Peak Moderation
The general response I have received is to be met with a call of we're all dooommed" whenever I mention anything related to the subject.
I have a wide range of friends and I estimate that two are interested one believes in the reality of oil deletion and it's consequences the other acknowledges it but has too much on his plate at present to take any effective measures.
When I have explained the theory and consequences people generally agree with it in principle but do not really believe that it applies to their lives.
It would seem that generally people do not like to think too deeply about any subject including ?peak oil?.
I have a wide range of friends and I estimate that two are interested one believes in the reality of oil deletion and it's consequences the other acknowledges it but has too much on his plate at present to take any effective measures.
When I have explained the theory and consequences people generally agree with it in principle but do not really believe that it applies to their lives.
It would seem that generally people do not like to think too deeply about any subject including ?peak oil?.
It's even worse than "lack of interest" - it's pure denial. The better you explain the tighter they will shut. I think it is very similar to the denial you find among addicts of various kinds and just like most help-oganisations formed by sober alcoholics use to claim: It is almost impossible to break trough denial - we cant reach out and turn them they have to wake up and come to us.mieke wrote:Just wondered what response folk get when they introduce the concept of peak oil to freinds/colleagues. My experiences may or may not be typical. I am an ex-scientist who will shortly be emigrating to NZ who in the final year here did a chef's course. On the course in my class are a mix of mature individuals most of whom I would describe as pretty bright and who have had successful first careers. They range from journalists successful entrepeuners through to IT specialists. With 1 partial exception they show very little interest in the concept and indeed now regard me bringing up the subject as 'boring etc'. Most seem to view the idea as either not a problem or something that will be dealt with appropriately. Its worrying - I would regard myself as a good communicator (20 years lecturing/teaching etc) so hopefully its not because I am indeed a bore on the subject. So far out of a wide circle of friends etc I have managed to get 2 folk (one of whom is my wife!) convinced there is a problem.....
Interesting subject. I agree that most people react with denial or disbelieve or believe that something/ somebody/ the government will sort it out.
This is not surprising.
When a new disaster theory, such as PO, is announced, it is just as well to be fully on one's guard and try to spot the weakness in the argument (which there usually is). After all such disasters do not usually actually happen, so on the face of it, it is more likely, that a flaw is found or a solution is found and no disaster takes place.
Common sense breaks down at the gate of uncommon occurrences.
I have taken about two months to be persuaded and to convince myself that there really is a problem. So why should I imagine that I can convince somebody else any faster.
It is probably best to start just with something simple, that is almost beyond doubt, such as oil is nor renewable, so oil will run out at some point and therefore oil production will go through a peak after which it will be more expensive. And something about how much oil is used daily world wide (that usually shocks people) and how widely it is used and how essential it is.
And then just mention that there seems to be no plausible alternative.
Stating this with sadness and posing it as a half question rather than stating this as a fact. That gets at least some people thinking, particularly if they have access to some 3rd party simple intro, such as www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
Because we all know so much more about this subject then others, we can come over as dogmatic ? because in their eyes we have an answer to everything and do nor properly consider their arguments. So it is important going into the more detailed and technical aspects sympathetically considering their arguments, however misguided and only with some sadness mention the reason why their argument unfortunately falls down.
That way they may even remain friends!
This is not surprising.
When a new disaster theory, such as PO, is announced, it is just as well to be fully on one's guard and try to spot the weakness in the argument (which there usually is). After all such disasters do not usually actually happen, so on the face of it, it is more likely, that a flaw is found or a solution is found and no disaster takes place.
Common sense breaks down at the gate of uncommon occurrences.
I have taken about two months to be persuaded and to convince myself that there really is a problem. So why should I imagine that I can convince somebody else any faster.
It is probably best to start just with something simple, that is almost beyond doubt, such as oil is nor renewable, so oil will run out at some point and therefore oil production will go through a peak after which it will be more expensive. And something about how much oil is used daily world wide (that usually shocks people) and how widely it is used and how essential it is.
And then just mention that there seems to be no plausible alternative.
Stating this with sadness and posing it as a half question rather than stating this as a fact. That gets at least some people thinking, particularly if they have access to some 3rd party simple intro, such as www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
Because we all know so much more about this subject then others, we can come over as dogmatic ? because in their eyes we have an answer to everything and do nor properly consider their arguments. So it is important going into the more detailed and technical aspects sympathetically considering their arguments, however misguided and only with some sadness mention the reason why their argument unfortunately falls down.
That way they may even remain friends!
I would agree with just about everything said here so far.
It would seem that 90%+ of the population fit the same mould when faced with any such suggested crisis, the key aspects of thier rationale are:
1) It's just not possible that society would sleepwalk into disaster, we're smarter than that
2) The media in the UK is responsible, any big issues would at least make the news
3) The government's primary job is to protect us - they might not be perfect but they would never allow a disaster to befall us
4) Big companies and institutions might be a little corrupt but they aren't so bad to allow anything truely disasterous to occur
5) Not another the end of the world is nigh" conspiracy theory I bet you can shoot it full of holes in 2mins
Most people here will agree that it takes tons of digging and weeks of effort to research the subject of Peak Oil to even get to a position where you can say "hey wait a minute something seems wrong here" and much more effort beyond that before you get to "man I'm really concerned now I think we're heading for a fall"
There are lots of high impact stories in the world that the mainstream media (even in the UK) either ignores or glosses over - when you dig deeper into the facts (or at least the counter-opinion) you find a different world a world most people never see of hear of.
I have come to the rather sad view that the uk NEEDS a shock a crisis it's the only thing that will change their world-view. Nothing short of TonyB addressing the nation would make people change their views of the world - since that will not happen a shock is the next best thing.
What a sad reflection on the uk populous that is
I admire people's efforts to enlighten their friends but the results generally reinforce my view that only a big shock will do the trick and that's assuming such an event does not get spun into something totally different (which is what I expect to happen in the USA at least).
It would seem that 90%+ of the population fit the same mould when faced with any such suggested crisis, the key aspects of thier rationale are:
1) It's just not possible that society would sleepwalk into disaster, we're smarter than that
2) The media in the UK is responsible, any big issues would at least make the news
3) The government's primary job is to protect us - they might not be perfect but they would never allow a disaster to befall us
4) Big companies and institutions might be a little corrupt but they aren't so bad to allow anything truely disasterous to occur
5) Not another the end of the world is nigh" conspiracy theory I bet you can shoot it full of holes in 2mins
Most people here will agree that it takes tons of digging and weeks of effort to research the subject of Peak Oil to even get to a position where you can say "hey wait a minute something seems wrong here" and much more effort beyond that before you get to "man I'm really concerned now I think we're heading for a fall"
There are lots of high impact stories in the world that the mainstream media (even in the UK) either ignores or glosses over - when you dig deeper into the facts (or at least the counter-opinion) you find a different world a world most people never see of hear of.
I have come to the rather sad view that the uk NEEDS a shock a crisis it's the only thing that will change their world-view. Nothing short of TonyB addressing the nation would make people change their views of the world - since that will not happen a shock is the next best thing.
What a sad reflection on the uk populous that is
I admire people's efforts to enlighten their friends but the results generally reinforce my view that only a big shock will do the trick and that's assuming such an event does not get spun into something totally different (which is what I expect to happen in the USA at least).
I really try NOT to tell anyone about PO, I know in advance that they are going to reply with full denial or topics (Hydrogen, magic inventions etc,). I did explain it to my father, who works for the gas company and who should be well informed. He told me that the company passed arround information on the subject (PO) telling it's employees the Supply and demand story, that is, the argument that the supply and demand law" will make the economy to move from fossil energy to renewable and so there will be no problem. I didn't push the matter any further like saying there is not enough time to swich or that you need oil to swich or that: economic crash = no investments = no money to make the switch etc.
There is a lot of people who are just not ready to accept reality no matter how intelligent they are.
I guess when the crash comes sites like thisone will have millions of visits each day but by that time it will be a little too late. Prepare now!
There is a lot of people who are just not ready to accept reality no matter how intelligent they are.
I guess when the crash comes sites like thisone will have millions of visits each day but by that time it will be a little too late. Prepare now!
Hi all,
I've just joined the site so apologies for joining a topic midthread without a proper introduction
I've actually stopped telling people about peak oil because the reactions I've received have been negative to the point of detrimental. Usually people think I've gone mad, a poor gullable fool whose read too many conspiracy theories . That said, I have read a lot of conspiracy theories so perhaps they're right
It actually hurts my standing with people I know and it's noticable. Perhaps it's the passion with which I've described the problem, afterall I'm hugely passionate about the topic and that's very apparent when talking to me. When people are passionate about ecological issues they tend to be branded as 'tree hugging loonies' and people assume you have priority issues.. after all, who would put the state of a tree above their jobs? So it leaves me in a position where my word is less valued that it was before I mentioned the topic.
These days I still try to get the message across but in a more subtle way. Doesn't tend to work though.
I've just joined the site so apologies for joining a topic midthread without a proper introduction
I've actually stopped telling people about peak oil because the reactions I've received have been negative to the point of detrimental. Usually people think I've gone mad, a poor gullable fool whose read too many conspiracy theories . That said, I have read a lot of conspiracy theories so perhaps they're right
It actually hurts my standing with people I know and it's noticable. Perhaps it's the passion with which I've described the problem, afterall I'm hugely passionate about the topic and that's very apparent when talking to me. When people are passionate about ecological issues they tend to be branded as 'tree hugging loonies' and people assume you have priority issues.. after all, who would put the state of a tree above their jobs? So it leaves me in a position where my word is less valued that it was before I mentioned the topic.
These days I still try to get the message across but in a more subtle way. Doesn't tend to work though.
Well in the last couple of weeks I have tried to pass the message to a small number of friends and a few acquaintances. Some have shown some limited interest, but I am not sure anybody has taken it seriously as a major issue. I try not to make too big a point about it and keep the discussion reasonably casual to get my point across.
So if we are all having such a tough time convincing others of this major global issue and the fact that it is about to change civilisation and we are likely to see an economic and social crash, then how come we all believe that such fundamental changes are about to hit our species?
What makes us different????
So if we are all having such a tough time convincing others of this major global issue and the fact that it is about to change civilisation and we are likely to see an economic and social crash, then how come we all believe that such fundamental changes are about to hit our species?
What makes us different????
'what makes us different'?
A pertinent question indeed. Well both my wife and I are/were scientists (medical). I'd like to say its in our training to assess large amounts of data and come to the resultant appropriate conclusion, but thats a pretty grandiose summation of what we do. Neither of us would consider ourselves tree huggers, thoughwe have an interest in conservation through diving. We are somewhat down on the consumerist society that has developed, so perahps we have embraced it from the desire to say 'we told you so'. I am by no menas a great fan of most of Homo sapiens doing on the planet; perhaps you have to start from a somehwat negative view of mankind (he say thinking aloud?)
A pertinent question indeed. Well both my wife and I are/were scientists (medical). I'd like to say its in our training to assess large amounts of data and come to the resultant appropriate conclusion, but thats a pretty grandiose summation of what we do. Neither of us would consider ourselves tree huggers, thoughwe have an interest in conservation through diving. We are somewhat down on the consumerist society that has developed, so perahps we have embraced it from the desire to say 'we told you so'. I am by no menas a great fan of most of Homo sapiens doing on the planet; perhaps you have to start from a somehwat negative view of mankind (he say thinking aloud?)
I have to agree with everybody on this topic as I myself have found it so frustrating to make people aware of this disaster that we are sleepwalking into. I have tried talking to everyone I know from friends and family to colleagues at work and it is always the same response?DENIAL!
So what can I do? I can only tell them the facts and if they choose to ignore and ridicule me I cannot help them. I have to say that I am at my lowest point right now and I have no idea about what I should do with regards to my future (If I have one!). Most of my friends are trying to get on the property ladder and buying new cars and taking on huge amounts of debt which they cannot afford, planning for a future that does not exist and I am left out on the margins trying to get out of debt.
It has got to the point when sometimes I wish I was like all the rest and have no idea about what is coming. If it wasn?t for the people I have met on this website then I think I would be going mad right now, so all I can hope for now is that we can all forge some type of future for ourselves whatever may come.
If they choose to ignore the warnings then so be it, they deserve no future. If we can accept reality so can they? if only they can open their eyes in time.
So what can I do? I can only tell them the facts and if they choose to ignore and ridicule me I cannot help them. I have to say that I am at my lowest point right now and I have no idea about what I should do with regards to my future (If I have one!). Most of my friends are trying to get on the property ladder and buying new cars and taking on huge amounts of debt which they cannot afford, planning for a future that does not exist and I am left out on the margins trying to get out of debt.
It has got to the point when sometimes I wish I was like all the rest and have no idea about what is coming. If it wasn?t for the people I have met on this website then I think I would be going mad right now, so all I can hope for now is that we can all forge some type of future for ourselves whatever may come.
If they choose to ignore the warnings then so be it, they deserve no future. If we can accept reality so can they? if only they can open their eyes in time.
Almost nothing - yet everything.snow hope wrote: What makes us different????
Most people I meet who are PO-aware seem to have the same broad combination of attributes:
1) An ability to do in-depth research using non-mainstream media
2) A long standing tendancy to question the current system or some of its methods (greens or coratation-haters for example)
3) The personal drive to research non-headline topics at length mostly for their own interest
And conversly the people I meet who are PO-naysayers all almost to a man have the following attributes:
1) Little interest in news of any kind but mainstream if they do
2) No questioning of the current system - they are happy who cares about the downside
3) ZERO interest in doign a hard slog thru a dense subject and repeatidly remoulding their opinions - questioning themselves and their views
If find these attributes generally are not PO-specific and spread to other topics such as the environment global warming polution economics stock markets house prices private car use corporate corruption etc etc - you can take all these topics and people with the above attributes and have a very good guess which camps they fall into.
The best example I find tho is "alien abduction" - the mere mention of those words has people reeling (as some of you will be doing now!) it's a topic that you simply cannot discuss. Why? Because to even discuss it opens up a personal pandoras box about the world you live in which most people find frankly disturbing
I found out about Peak Oil back in Summer 2003. I couldn?t understand why we had been so keen to get back to Iraq. Also I was horrified to the way the public started panic buying bottled water, after the BBC Today?s program, speculated on how easy it would be to taint the UK water system. Something seemed to be totally wrong. Even before learning the about peak oil, I understood that society lives from hand to mouth and that holding a couple of weeks food would be a good thing, just in case. Then after one day of searching links on Oil and war and Iraq I came across Peak Oil. It took a further few months of this sinking in, until around December 2003, when I discovered a very new (and much smaller than today?s) LifeaftertheOilcrash. Then the penny dropped and I suddenly understood.
The first friend I told, didn?t want to know. If fact she has her head so deeply in the sand that she told me so, in not so many words. ?Don?t spoil my day, with this? if you feel so strongly about it, join a campaign or something? were her words. I suppose it must be difficult trying to comprehend things, when you have a ?200,000 mortgage and are up to your eyes with credit card debt. The problem is that at the moment this is not reality for people, when they look out at their world.
The next person that I told was my mum, who I get on really well with. She is a very intelligent, well read women in her late 60s, who lived through the blitz of the second world war as a child and she understands that the world could change again.
We talked about Peak Oil a few times and she would always come back to me with, but we are finding oil every day, or that some new technology like fusion will save us.
Then when Shell announced that they had over booked their reserves and the price of oil started to rise, she came back to me and said, ok, but don?t tell me, I told you so. We then had a very long conversation about this the next Saturday evening, until 4am. Since this time (march 2004) we talk regularly on peak oil and world events. She sends me interesting articles from the internet, has made changes to her house, double glazing etc and now has a stock of extra food and items useful in times of shortages.
I no longer talk to my friends about peak oil. They know that I do some part time work for Powerswitch, write the odd piece, go to meetings etc and I send them interesting articles from the Energy Bulletin. I haven?t needed to approach my friends, because they have come to me with questions. In fact I have a rule that I never mention it, unless they bring up the subject first and I have over the past few months had many in depth conversations. In fact one friend once said that he thought it was great that there were people like myself willing to work on this and make people aware of the issues.
There are of course others, that simply don?t want to know, but in general all of the people that I know totally respect and value the conversations that we have.
Clive
The first friend I told, didn?t want to know. If fact she has her head so deeply in the sand that she told me so, in not so many words. ?Don?t spoil my day, with this? if you feel so strongly about it, join a campaign or something? were her words. I suppose it must be difficult trying to comprehend things, when you have a ?200,000 mortgage and are up to your eyes with credit card debt. The problem is that at the moment this is not reality for people, when they look out at their world.
The next person that I told was my mum, who I get on really well with. She is a very intelligent, well read women in her late 60s, who lived through the blitz of the second world war as a child and she understands that the world could change again.
We talked about Peak Oil a few times and she would always come back to me with, but we are finding oil every day, or that some new technology like fusion will save us.
Then when Shell announced that they had over booked their reserves and the price of oil started to rise, she came back to me and said, ok, but don?t tell me, I told you so. We then had a very long conversation about this the next Saturday evening, until 4am. Since this time (march 2004) we talk regularly on peak oil and world events. She sends me interesting articles from the internet, has made changes to her house, double glazing etc and now has a stock of extra food and items useful in times of shortages.
I no longer talk to my friends about peak oil. They know that I do some part time work for Powerswitch, write the odd piece, go to meetings etc and I send them interesting articles from the Energy Bulletin. I haven?t needed to approach my friends, because they have come to me with questions. In fact I have a rule that I never mention it, unless they bring up the subject first and I have over the past few months had many in depth conversations. In fact one friend once said that he thought it was great that there were people like myself willing to work on this and make people aware of the issues.
There are of course others, that simply don?t want to know, but in general all of the people that I know totally respect and value the conversations that we have.
Clive
I keep on telling them.
I suggest you do too.
Because as their way of life that they value so much crumbles away, and as they struggle with the tough new reality, and they sit their frowning, miserable, wondering what they can do with the rest of their life, I'll be walking up to them with a big grin on my hungry face and I'll say those four sweet words.
I told you so. "
Being smug in a crisis is seriously under-rated
BUT SERIOUSLY...
Just keep on telling people. If you care about them tell them. If they deny it go back with more evidence and arguments. This really is an argument you can't lose. Is there an objection you can't overcome? I haven't heard one.
If they don't act on it now they will at least think about it when the prices go up and up and up and they'll say "Oh yeah they had a point after all".
I have seen this so many times.
PLANT THE SEEDS.
I suggest you do too.
Because as their way of life that they value so much crumbles away, and as they struggle with the tough new reality, and they sit their frowning, miserable, wondering what they can do with the rest of their life, I'll be walking up to them with a big grin on my hungry face and I'll say those four sweet words.
I told you so. "
Being smug in a crisis is seriously under-rated
BUT SERIOUSLY...
Just keep on telling people. If you care about them tell them. If they deny it go back with more evidence and arguments. This really is an argument you can't lose. Is there an objection you can't overcome? I haven't heard one.
If they don't act on it now they will at least think about it when the prices go up and up and up and they'll say "Oh yeah they had a point after all".
I have seen this so many times.
PLANT THE SEEDS.
I have mixed emotions about telling people and my reason is simple. Say you are successful in breaking through and getting someone to actually buy into the PO theory. Now what? What are they supposed to do with this new found knowledge?
There is something to be said for the old adadge, Ignorance is bliss." My knowledge of PO frankly bums me out. There is not a single thing I can do about it. As long as the majority continues with their current consumption patterns my efforts are wasted. What am I to do with my PO knowledge that will help alleviate or prevent the problem?
To cite another adage "Misery loves company." It is this emotion that drives our need to share PO news with others. As I have slowly come around to this belief I think I will refrain from telling anyone else. Why should they have to become uneasy about the future on this issue when the average soul already has enough to fret about?
There is something to be said for the old adadge, Ignorance is bliss." My knowledge of PO frankly bums me out. There is not a single thing I can do about it. As long as the majority continues with their current consumption patterns my efforts are wasted. What am I to do with my PO knowledge that will help alleviate or prevent the problem?
To cite another adage "Misery loves company." It is this emotion that drives our need to share PO news with others. As I have slowly come around to this belief I think I will refrain from telling anyone else. Why should they have to become uneasy about the future on this issue when the average soul already has enough to fret about?