Why I fear the lights will go out in Britain

[ziggy12345]

The only logical outcome for a vegan is to commit suicide because, by living, they are depriving insects and animals the ability to forage for their essential food on that area of land used to grow food for the vegan. By living, they are depriving insects and animals of their food and habitat. Bastards!!!

The same should be said of anybody who seriously want to lower their carbon footprint

[emordnilap]

The only logical outcome for a vegan is to commit suicide because, by living, they are depriving insects and animals the ability to forage for their essential food on that area of land used to grow food for the vegan. By living, they are depriving insects and animals of their food and habitat. Bastards!!!

Then of course we have the people who say, "We should eat animals - after all, they're made out of meat for a reason!"

So the logical outcome is cannibalism.

[JohnB]

So the logical outcome is cannibalism.

But hasn't it now been proved that eating the flesh of your own species can cause all sorts of nasty diseases?

I'm not eating much meat now, and will probably eat less when we get food growing in full swing here, as there may not be space for animals, apart from poultry. Eating that Quorn I found in my freezer may put me off a non meat diet though .

[emordnilap]

So the logical outcome is cannibalism.

But hasn't it now been proved that eating the flesh of your own species can cause all sorts of nasty diseases?

What, you mean like heart disease, bowel cancer, breast cancer, CJD, listeria and so on?

Eating that Quorn I found in my freezer may put me off a non meat diet though .

Well...I had you down as more sensible, John.

[JohnB]

Eating that Quorn I found in my freezer may put me off a non meat diet though .

Well...I had you down as more sensible, John.

Couldn't let it go to waste, and I had to try it to see if it's as bad as I was told it was. It's edible, but I won't be eating any more after I finish it tonight!

[kenneal - lagger]

What, you mean like heart disease, bowel cancer, breast cancer, CJD, listeria and so on?

You can get listeria from eating lettuce, and e-coli.

[Andy Hunt]

All the vegans I know are pretty chilled out people, and although I am not one myself, I do have a lot of respect for it. I have not found vegans generally to be particularly judgemental or anything, in fact I can't even think of acsingle vegan I know who is objectionable in that way.

Quite apart from the moral and ethical issues, a vegan diet means a very low carbon footprint, at least if the vegan food is local and seasonal. Although I eat meat, I enjoy challenging myself to find the meat-less and dairy-less option, just to see if it can be done. And I find that taking that option is easiest when I have fruit and veg ready for picking in my own back garden.

I doubt I will ever be a vegan, but I don't see how understanding it and even aspiring to it to some degree can be a bad thing, generally speaking. I think we take meat far too much for granted.

[kenneal - lagger]

I used to be a vegan, but only when I went to CAT for the MSc modules. As I have a cows dairy intolerance I was given the vegan option instead of the normal vegetarian. I was the only vegan beef farmer in the world, probably.

I have more time for vegans than vegetarians, though. You can't have a vegetarian diet without the slaughter of dairy calves in order to get the milk. I find vegetarians who eat dairy products a bit hypocritical.

[Keela]

Well said Andy. My view exactly.

Ken! Vegan beef farmer!

[emordnilap]

I find vegetarians who eat dairy products a bit hypocritical.

I agree to a great extent. Indeed, the argument could be made that a meat-avoiding diet - but one which includes dairy, eggs and possibly fish - is worse from all standpoints (apart from possibly a medical angle) than an omnivorous one.

If the vegetarian is committed to moving through vegetarianism to veganism, I'll forgive 'em, though it's still a cop-out.

Deciding to move away from eating other sentient species has led me quite easily and naturally to a vegan lifestyle and has, I believe, made me a healthier person and one with a set of principles I don't think I could have acquired otherwise.

Last time I was at the doc's she took my blood pressure and pulse; both were on the low end of the normal range. I'd just hurriedly cycled six miles to the surgery, having set off late for the appointment, so I think that's pretty cool!

[JohnB]

I have more time for vegans than vegetarians, though. You can't have a vegetarian diet without the slaughter of dairy calves in order to get the milk. I find vegetarians who eat dairy products a bit hypocritical.

Apparently there is bull semen available that allows you to choose the sex of calves you want. It's expensive, and not perfect, but getting better. Something to do with the bull doing his duty when his nuts are at a certain temperature I think I was told, by an organic dairy farmer. So no more unwanted males .

[emordnilap]

The only logical outcome for a vegan is to commit suicide because, by living, they are depriving insects and animals the ability to forage for their essential food on that area of land used to grow food for the vegan. By living, they are depriving insects and animals of their food and habitat. Bastards!!!

The same should be said of anybody who seriously want to lower their carbon footprint

Not quite. The most sensible from a CO2 point of view would be to eat or compost any children or human foetuses you have and get yourself neutered and become vegan.

[RogueMale]

It seems that it is not just farm animals that have been genetically domesticated but humans as well. By killing of troublemakers, kings etc have bred an unnaturally docile peasant class witch has difficulty finding motivation to defend itself or its kin from attack or manipulation. So despite the fairly obvious zero sum nature of the world they fall for simplistic universalist religions like Christianity, Buddhism, and modern Liberalism with there clearly impossible goals. Lately these ideologies have been able to achieve ludicrous extremes in large segments of the population due to illusion of limitless wealth that has been brought about by the bounty of fossil fuels. Discard these ideologies they are poison for the mind.

It might be trendy to blame many of our ills on religion, but human self-domestication is caused by civilization, not religion per se. It's a frequently discussed idea, e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2082022/ and http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/2005/05/04.html, and I think there's a lot of truth in it. Nowadays, hardly anyone could make a go of living in a completely wild state, and few have even tried it.

The other thing I can say is that the world does not have a zero-sum nature. We all benefit more by cooperating than by not cooperating. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolut ... ooperation and chapter 12 of The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins (Nice Guys Finish First).

Religion, as I pointed out in a previous post, has been subverted and made to serve the purposes of those currently in power (at least up until the Enlightenment). The original teachings of Jesus, for example, were quite subversive.

[Grizzly Mouse]

The only logical outcome for a vegan is to commit suicide because, by living, they are depriving insects and animals the ability to forage for their essential food on that area of land used to grow food for the vegan. By living, they are depriving insects and animals of their food and habitat. Bastards!!!

The same should be said of anybody who seriously want to lower their carbon footprint

Not quite. The most sensible from a CO2 point of view would be to eat or compost any children or human foetuses you have and get yourself neutered and become vegan.

If you want to a minimal carbon footprint it is best to become a mass murderer and subsist mainly through cannibalism, you could easily develop a negative footprint that way.

[biffvernon]

If your job involves sequestering carbon, say by converting potentially rotting trees into pieces of joinery, one can have a negative carbon footprint.

I find this pleasanter than some of the suggested alternatives.