Why I fear the lights will go out in Britain

[emordnilap]

Humans are omnivores

I've never seen any convincing evidence to support this; the best I can say about it is that it is accepted - even by some vegans - that a small amount of meat is not detrimental (to the human eating it, that is).

From a paper I read recently:

Traditional populations that consume large amounts of animal products, from free roaming animals, have been found to suffer with extensive cardiovascular disease [...] then this leads to the question of what level of animal food intake is believed to be free of adverse effects, and then onto the question of why humans should be adversely affected by eating more animal foods if they are supposedly adapted to such a diet?

Anyway, my view is 'can' does not equal 'should'.

[Andy Hunt]

Anyway, my view is 'can' does not equal 'should'.

Agreed.

Many populations though, such as the Inuit, have survived perfectly well for centuries on a diet of almost pure meat. Conversely, there is evidence to show that many populations surviving on a diet with a high proportion of grains and woody vegetable matter suffered early death due to the inability to eat, due to the premature erosion of molars and tooth abscesses associated with grinding tough vegetable matter.

Humans have the front incisors and canine teeth associated with a carnivorous diet, as well as the grinding molars associated with a herbivorous diet, which is the most obvious indication of an omnivorous predisposition, along with our primate relatives.

Farming is another matter - it could be likened to a ghastly parasitic activity where the parasite keeps its host alive in order to extract the goodness; or it could be viewed as humanity's solution to the hunting of food animals to extinction, where instead of just being hunted in an uncontrolled fashion, the animals are designated their living space and the food take from them is managed. In the latter case you could argue that farming is preferable to extinction, which I think was Keela's point.

[MrG]

May I be so bold as to point out that the bulk of soya grown goes to feed...what? You can probably guess.

Oh I've heard that argument many times as well. Soya may well be fed to our animals but quite clearly it doesn't need to be since we kept sheep, pigs and cattle in the uk long before we had even heard of soya. Feeding animals soya is just another way of upping the gain on our industrialised farming methods by turning more oil into food because in these crazy times its still economical to ship in the soya.

This just collapses back into the same trophic level argument.

What I would like to see is vegans not even entering into these arguments. They really aren't talking about farming efficiency / people fed per acre they are talking about a moral position. The arguments they make about people fed per acre are all simply wrong for all of the reasons that Keela quite eloquently described.

But if that isn't the real reason for being vegan (I'm sure its probably not) then why even make that argument when all you really need to say is that if we don't NEED to consume another species for food then we shouldn't do it. End of.

You are posting on this board and are therefore proof that we do not NEED to consume other species for food since you are obviously alive. Isn't that all you really need to say?

What gets me thinking about the whole thing is how sustainable such a lifestyle will be in an error of ever increasing localisation.. much much less meat certainly. I'm all for it - but none? And no eggs? That could be hard to do.

I'd be interested to know what you do mostly eat then if you don't munch soya? Like I say not because I'm having a go.. I'm genuinely interested in largely cutting out meat myself. If you think I'm prying just tell me to F--k off thats fine!

It'd be eggs I'd miss more than meat I think tbh

[emordnilap]

What I would like to see is vegans not even entering into these arguments. They really aren't talking about farming efficiency / people fed per acre they are talking about a moral position.

No, I try to see the totality of it, not just the moral angle. I can only speak for myself though.

As for what we eat, run further down this page for a few samples.

[MrG]

Cheers for that I knew there was a thread on hear somewhere. Unfortunately the Clives Pies page won't load up I was interested in that!

And of course you can only speak for yourself. The other thing I was going to say but ran out of time through not wanting to be in work longer than neccacary!! (I only have internet at work and only work 3 days a week) is that it shouldn't be an 'argument' or a case of 'arguments' at all because it is of course a personal choice (even though I was talking about the trophic level argument etc.)

Basically all the vegans I have spoken to have been really defensive when you start to quiz them about it in a spirit of genuine interest and I think thast a shame. I think this is because they are used to meat eaters trying to 'convert' them or something... this is basically what happened with the chicken man who tried to tell me I shouldn't keep chickens because unless I feed them antibiotics and soya and x amount of other shite they won't lay eggs.

To which my response basically was "Its a f***ing chicken where do you think all the little chickens come from"

Now thats a classic chicken and egg situation

[kenneal - lagger]

..........unless I feed them antibiotics and soya and x amount of other shite they won't lay eggs.

That's a load of chicken manure. A mixture of ground wheat, ground barley, an oilseed such as rape or linseed, and crushed peas or beans and loads of grass and bugs will keep them laying perfectly happily for several years with a moult each year, of course. Just move them around to new grass regularly. If you can give them a bit of woodland as well, all the better.

Just keep Mr Fox, dogs and mink well away.

[leroy]

Just getting my first National hive and nucleus this weekend- very excited about this and was telling a friend earlier on in the week about it who is a vegan.

She was not impressed- the enslavement of a wild animal for my own personal gains. Have to say I am not sure about the whole ethics of the thing.

One of the ideas related to domesticated mammalian and avian livestock apply to beekeeping- that many colonies would not survive without a symbiotic relationship with humans, but I think that they are still much 'wilder' animals than pigs or cows.

On the other hand, it seems apparent in the literature that bees need us in the current way of things, and I am going to implement as many Barefoot Beekeeper principles as possible in the future, but have to get used to the thing first. Borage, bergamot, lucerne &tc..

There is, I suppose, the additional aspect in that if we lose all bees then we are probably all totally f***ed.


Any thoughts on honey guys, any vegans have a comment?

[Janco2]

Why are you getting a National hive Leroy?

We recently made an HTBH as per the Barefoot Beekeeper and are awaiting delivery of a local nucleus.

Basically we are making a home for the bees and will intervene as little as possible and only take honey when the bees have more than enough for their own use.

[emordnilap]

leroy: honey/beekeeping is one of the more difficult issues in veganism although Janco2 has a practical take on it; I avoid honey as a matter of principle and there are lots of alternatives.

The human race eats enough sweet stuff as it is!

[Grizzly Mouse]

Pastorialism was such an advantageous lifestyle that it caused the gene for lactose tolerance to spread like wildfire across west Eurasia.

Soy is full of psuedoeastrogens, anti nutrients and other poisonous garbage, if you are going to eat it its best to eat it fermented (canabalizing bacteria which are animals!) and in limited quantities as was the tradition in China where it originated.

If the herbivores were left to their own devices they would quickly fill up the land to well beyond its carrying capacity the hills would become barren and eroded uncountable sickly skeletal creatures raid your croplands for food. All in all herbivores have better quality of life when then numbers are kept in check by some form of predator, this used to be done wolves now it is done by men. If you abandoned the highland probably be taken over by feral dogs. The butchers knife provide a much quicker and less painful death than being chased for hours and slowly bitten to death by pack wild dogs so I don't see how slaughtering an animal is less moral than leaving them to it.

All life is at war even even the blades of grass compete for soil and sun cutting short the lives of those seeds that land on there patch. Simply buy continuing to live you take up breathing space an food that would go to another animal in your absence effectively killing them.

It seems that it is not just farm animals that have been genetically domesticated but humans as well. By killing of troublemakers, kings etc have bred an unnaturally docile peasant class witch has difficulty finding motivation to defend itself or its kin from attack or manipulation. So despite the fairly obvious zero sum nature of the world they fall for simplistic universalist religions like Christianity, Buddhism, and modern Liberalism with there clearly impossible goals. Lately these ideologies have been able to achieve ludicrous extremes in large segments of the population due to illusion of limitless wealth that has been brought about by the bounty of fossil fuels. Discard these ideologies they are poison for the mind.

[MrG]

That's a load of chicken manure

Of course it is!! The guy was a fool but I should of been less vocal in telling him that coz it made my life more complicated in other ways. I just need to learn to bite my tongue sometimes.

re the bees thing.. beaten to it again! this is another one I had been thinking to myself is pretty interesting from a vegan perspective and I'd been meaning to ask emordnilap the question. The reason I think this one is interesting is that I really don't think you can consider hive insects in the same way as other creatures from a moralistic perspective because it is not the bee really which can be considered as the individual - rather the hive.

Yes we steal their honey but what happens as I understand it is that we buidl them a home as Janco says and they will basically keep making honey until they fill all the space. If you take some honey out they don't stop and think "Hang on there was more honey here yesterday" they just keep making honey because now there is space (like the little machines which they are). If they made their home in a hollow in a tree they would just make less honey if there is less space.

My mate summed this up pretty well when I said about us building a home (our beehive was getting built this weekend and he was musing the issue as my housemate was knocking it together). He said "So we build them a house and I guess its just like they are paying us rent" He's got a point actually! The guy is a builder who rents out property so you can see why he thought about it that way!

Later on this weekend I overheard the same mate relaying his new perspective on beekeeping to another guy (probably vegan) who came up with the asertion that "beekeepers are *****" because we are enslaving these insects and stealing their honey.

I didn't get drawn into it and didn't tell him he was a foolish hippy well proud of myself especially as I am now an aspiring beekeeper!

[emordnilap]

The Vegan Society's page about bees is here.

[kenneal - lagger]

The only logical outcome for a vegan is to commit suicide because, by living, they are depriving insects and animals the ability to forage for their essential food on that area of land used to grow food for the vegan. By living, they are depriving insects and animals of their food and habitat. Bastards!!!

[snow hope]

roflol !!!!! Seriously funny Ken!

[Aurora]

roflol !!!!! Seriously funny Ken!

+1