Breaking news: Major gaffe from Gordon

[Andy Hunt]

I suspect that much of the problem with immigration is due to the way many temporary visitors to the country treat the place. When you have gone to a country to make a quick buck and then return home, for some the temptation must be there to treat the experience as a disposable one.

So you get immigrants who come over, drop litter, commit crimes (sometimes violent ones), ignore the indigenous population and are even contemptuous of them, and do their best to milk the system for all it is worth before returning whence they came.

Of course it would be lovely if everyone could choose to live anywhere in the world Biff. And it would also be lovely if all visitors treated our home as if it was their own - but unfortunately many don't. And many British people can see that it is the temporary nature of much immigration, and the purely economic driver behind it, which contributes to this kind of behaviour. And I would challenge you to tell me that they are wrong Biff.

Just because someone is concerned about the effect of immigration on their home town, village or country does not automatically make them a bigot.

[biffvernon]

So you get immigrants who come over, drop litter

Oh! Right! Of course. They drop litter. True Brits would never do that. Send 'em all back where they came from. I'll vote for the other Nick.

[Andy Hunt]

So you get immigrants who come over, drop litter

Oh! Right! Of course. They drop litter. True Brits would never do that. Send 'em all back where they came from. I'll vote for the other Nick.

Seems like the politicians aren't the only ones addicted to sensationalism around here.

Demonising people for having a legitimate concern is a great tactic for suppressing dissent. I suppose you think that anyone who criticises the state of Israel is anti-Semitic too.

[Andy Hunt]

What kind of neighbourhood do you live in Biff?

I live on a working class terraced housing estate, which is about half White British and about half Asian British, but with a significant contingent of Eastern European economic migrants living in rented homes.

A good proportion of the white and Asian residents own their homes, and by and large the houses are well looked after and the back streets are tidy.

But the story is generally quite different with the rented housing occupied by either European immigrants or by Asians who spend half the year in Pakistan or similar. Although obviously there are exceptions, there is a very high incidence of back alleys full of trash and a general lack of care of the property.

This does not go unnoticed, not only by the white population but also by the Asians who have made this place their own. It's quite common to hear second or third generation Asians referring to "dirty Pakis" - their own people, save for the fact that some have made the UK their home and look after it as such, and some see the UK as a system to be milked, and to be held in contempt.

Maybe you live in a nice upper middle class part of the world Biff where you don't have this kind of situation. I can only think that this must be the case, because you seem to be as out of touch with reality as Gordon Brown is.

[biffvernon]

I suppose you think that anyone who criticises the state of Israel is anti-Semitic too.

Blimey! How do you work that out. I've been boycotting Jaffa oranges for decades.

[biffvernon]

What kind of neighbourhood do you live in Biff?...
Maybe you live in a nice upper middle class part of the world Biff

Oh dear. It's very rural so appears rather nice. Next door neighbour (200 yards away) is a Pole of the generation that joined the RAF to fight the Nazis. Rather romantically he married a Ukranian woman a few years ago. So much hassle with immigration

The only faces with a dusky complexion in the village are the family who run the shop - they took it over after earlier English owners suddenly emigrated to the Costas leaving a trail of rumours of financial 'irregularities'. The area is predominantly 'working class' and with average wage rates probably amongst the lowest in the country. There are a large proportion of retired people, many living in the 30 000 caravans and mobile homes. Europe's largest concentration of caravans is on the Lincolnshire post.

A very significant number of East Europeans have moved to Lincolnshire. For some reason British people don't like picking sprouts for five pounds an hour and the farmers are keen to hire people who work hard. Boston street market now has the best fresh fruit and veg stall I've ever seen. As good as anything you see in French markets. These immigrants seem to be willing to pay for good fresh food.

Lincolnshire is also home to a small number of fabulously wealthy people, big cereal farmers, bankers, food industry executives and old money. When people talk of the up-coming feed-the-world problem I look at the land devoted to daddy's daughter's little ponies.

[caspian]

For some reason British people don't like picking sprouts for five pounds an hour and the farmers are keen to hire people who work hard.

Yeah, funny that. I wonder why? Biff, this is the ugly reality of the economic migration you champion. In effect you are the cheerleader for the exploitation of desperate people, even though I'm sure you would recoil at the thought. Ever wondered why the CBI are so in favour of immigration? It's not because their hearts gladden at the thought of a happy rainbow nation of cheery workers. It's a strange thing indeed that elements of the left and right can find common cause in this issue, albeit for totally opposite reasons.

[caspian]

Don't you think that being the only country in the world with absolutely no border restrictions might be a little reckless?

Who said anything about being the only country? That doesn't make sense. An open border has to be open in both directions. Doh!

As I said before, it ain't going to happen, so quit living in a fantasy world. Borders are a reality, however much you'd wish them gone.

[biffvernon]

Yeah, reality is peak oil and global warming but while there's a glimmer of hope of a solution we may as well keep fighting for a better world. As for exploitation of desperate people, you could use the same argument for importing any product from a low wage economy. If you really want my dreams it's for the day when all humankind is equally wealthy and there is no exploitation. It won't happen but it's what stops me voting Tory.

[RenewableCandy]

...When people talk of the up-coming feed-the-world problem I look at the land devoted to daddy's daughter's little ponies.

I look at the ponies. Perhaps I've been to France once too often...

[emordnilap]

Biff for president.

[Andy Hunt]

My dream is for a world where people clean up after themselves and treat other people's home as they would treat their own.

It will only ever be a dream, I know that.

[Grizzly Mouse]

Why are people worried about immigration? Perhaps it is because England is the most heavily-populated country in Europe and nobody except the BNP is willing to talk seriously about it.

actually all 3 main parties are now proposing some pretty serious immigration controls. UKIP and BNP go further of course, each in their own way. The 3 main parties are not proposing to leave the EU, so under current free movement rules can't stop EU immigration, but the EU migrants come and go with the available work anyway.

in my view, immigration is far down the list of things to worry about.

Like amnesty for illegal immigrants, yeah real tough!

[caspian]

When you do the sums carefully the population and food arguments really are very weak.

I don't think that's true Biff. A few years ago an article in New Scientist reported on a study which concluded that the entire population of planet could be fed adequately and organically, but only if everyone ate a vegan diet. Now add into the mix an exponentially growing population, and pressure on land to grow biofuels and restore woodland, and you've got a very very serious problem indeed.

Population, in particular, is just a scapegoat because it is always other people that are alive and having babies not the person speaking, who rarely offers suicide as a solution.

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that anyone concerned about population growth should kill themselves in order that other, selfish people can carry on breeding? Whatever happened to self control?

For some people, talking about population is a cipher for racism, but malthusians aren't racists by default.

[biffvernon]

Population, a scapegoat.

Of course problems for the planet caused by people are likely to be made worse by more people. No brainer, but that doesn't get us very far. My contention is that what the people do is an order of magnitude greater in importance than how many there are. Several countries have a per capita carbon footprint more than ten times greater than several other countries. Hence order of magnitude greater importance.

Scapegoat? Well the population problem is often raised by old people, (past it) men (we don't have babies) and people who are happy to have less than 2.1 children. The population problem can then safely be blamed on someone else, young people, women, people who like lots of kids, foreigners, poor people who worry they need children to look after them, poor people who worry that their children are likely to die. The population problem is easy to pin on others. Making the population problem number one avoids having to look at one's own ecological footprint, how much carbon we burn, meat we eat, resources we consume.

Let's campaign about poverty, child health, women's education, and most of all, our own behaviour regarding resource consumption. The population problem will melt away if we are successful on these issues.