Can Caroline Lucas change British politics for ever?

[Aurora]

The Independent - 25/04/10

As leader she has won her battle to transform the Green Party. Now, she is fighting to make history in Brighton.

Article continues ...

[emordnilap]

The Independent - 25/04/10

As leader she has won her battle to transform the Green Party. Now, she is fighting to make history in Brighton.

Article continues ...

Good luck to her. Of course, in the FPTP system, her influence could be zilch. As a part of a coalition, she'd have to compromise massively to get a few small successes, as has happened in Ireland. The Greens, once red, are now are now largely blue.

[RenewableCandy]

She'd make parliament a damnsight more interesting. At the very least.

[UndercoverElephant]

The Independent - 25/04/10

As leader she has won her battle to transform the Green Party. Now, she is fighting to make history in Brighton.

Article continues ...

Goo luck to her. Of course, in the FPTP system, her influence could be zilch.

I don't agree. The mere presence of green MP at Westminster is enough to make some sort of difference. She would have the mandate to speak on behalf of quite a lot of people, could ask questions that no MPs from other parties would dare to ask and would provide a beacon of hope for people who live in other seats which could concievably go green in the future...especially if the voting system is changed.

[emordnilap]

Goo luck to her. Of course, in the FPTP system, her influence could be zilch.

I don't agree. The mere presence of green MP at Westminster is enough to make some sort of difference. She would have the mandate to speak on behalf of quite a lot of people, could ask questions that no MPs from other parties would dare to ask and would provide a beacon of hope for people who live in other seats which could concievably go green in the future...especially if the voting system is changed.

Hmm, I dunno. The Greens here in opposition were pretty much ineffective as any sort of force for change. In government, they're lightweight and easily coerced to giving in to the dominant party. They have achieved a few minor changes but generally are seen to kowtow just to stay in position.

We can hope, though.

[cubes]

Can Caroline Lucas change British politics for ever?

No, next question!

Looking at their website I find very few (what I would call) "green" policies.

http://www.greenparty.org.uk/policies.html

Also, their campaign hq in Norwich also leaves something to be desired (or is it an eco-friendly crt tv in the window!).

[JohnB]

Can Caroline Lucas change British politics for ever?

I wish I could vote Green. As I can't, all I can do is vote Plaid Cymru to make sure Labour don't get in in my constituency.

[Vortex]

Perhaps it should more accurately be called the CLP?

[UndercoverElephant]

Can Caroline Lucas change British politics for ever?

No, next question!

Looking at their website I find very few (what I would call) "green" policies.

And what would you say if you only found green policies?

I think you're a paid-up member of the conservative party.

[UndercoverElephant]

There's two sorts of green. "Shallow green" is your "let's clean up our neighbourhood because the air smells" sort of green, who is mostly interested in solving the symptoms of the problem. "Deep green" or "ecophilosophy" refers to people who take a top-down approach to the whole problem, see the need for radical social change and believe that all life is intrinsically valuable. But what do greens actually want to achieve? The environmental movement is accompanied by two other ideological movements...the peace movement and the social justice movement. A utopian green society would probably demand peace and social justice also, but it is only indirectly related to environmentalism.

Green politics has always been plagued by the differences between deep and shallow greens and the competing needs of environmentalism and social justice. This mis-match is set to become much worse, because in an era of falling living standards and population die-off, social justice becomes a completely impossible dream. Instead, natural selection returns - survival of the fittest.

We are now entering a time when the environmental movement and the social justice movement are both going to be put under intense pressure, and they will eventually be set against each other. Green politics is complicated...

[emordnilap]

Indeed, UE.

I'm a member of the Irish Green party and have been for donkey's years. Starting with them getting into government, I'm increasingly at odds with policy and have been looking to other parties who seem to be out-greening the greens.

I know what is happening to the Green party is in the nature of politics but when policy trumps principle, it's time to re-appraise. Thus, Lucas supporters, beware of what you wish for.

A prime example: scrappage schemes for cars and grants for electric vehicles. Both crowed about from the rooftops by our Green leaders. Both BAU solutions; indeed, worse, since only rich people need apply!

[goslow]

wasn't it always the case.... "fundies" vs "realos" in the German Greens.

I'm a pragmatic type so I would rather go with the realos and get one quarter or one half of what I would like, rather than stick with the fundies and get none of it.

I agree that social justice concerns can work against sustainability, like encouraging buying fair trade goods from far away in place of local equivalents, or wanting everyone to have a higher standard of living (as Labour tends to do). On the other hand, social justice in terms of supporting the little people fighting against the big bad corporations (e.g. big dams) often is in step with the environmental cause.

[UndercoverElephant]

wasn't it always the case.... "fundies" vs "realos" in the German Greens.

I'm a pragmatic type so I would rather go with the realos and get one quarter or one half of what I would like, rather than stick with the fundies and get none of it.

I agree that social justice concerns can work against sustainability, like encouraging buying fair trade goods from far away in place of local equivalents, or wanting everyone to have a higher standard of living (as Labour tends to do). On the other hand, social justice in terms of supporting the little people fighting against the big bad corporations (e.g. big dams) often is in step with the environmental cause.

Sometimes they are in step. The biggest problem I see is this: why, if you have already accepted that 2bn+ people are going to die of starvation anyway, should any resources be devoted to attempting to raise their standard of living? (or even to keep them alive?)

Ultimately, environmentalism must stand up for the entire ecosystem...and that is going to increasingly mean that it has to take decisions which prevent us from achieving social justice. This is an ethical minefield. I am claiming that we can no longer avoid the situation where social darwinism returns. (And by social darwinism I do not mean eugenics - I simply mean that those societies which adapt to the new global situation will survive and those which fail to adapt will perish, as darwinism dictates.) You can see this tension in my own arguments...I thoroughly reject the conservative party because my politics are naturally left wing and liberal, but I increasingly find myself agreeing with the far-right BNP on actual policies.

[emordnilap]

I'm a pragmatic type so I would rather go with the realos and get one quarter or one half of what I would like, rather than stick with the fundies and get none of it.

A quarter would be awesome!

[goslow]

but I increasingly find myself agreeing with the far-right BNP on actual policies.

you don't have to go as far as supporting the BNP, the tories/UKIP seem still quite into social darwinism, at least in terms of reducing the state support cushion for those who can't or won't work.

Concerning social justice vs environment, my suspicion is that most urban based greens/environmentalists are interested primarily in the humanitarian aspect rather than the ecosystem as a whole. Most of it is about the sustainability of our society. So the health of people and the contination of the (supposed) benefits of a moderately advanced civilisation is the main motivation, rather than aiming to give equal rights to all species to share the world. Ecosystem preservation is often talked about in terms of the value of ecosystem services, e.g. stop cutting down rainforests to help with climate change and prevent flooding.

The sustainability agenda and the wildlife conservation agenda sometimes conflict, like with the proposed Severn Barrage. The social justice agenda conflicts in things like food aid supporting continued population growth, ever expanding healthcare provision with no regard to energy consumption and carbon emissions etc.