PV and electric cars

alternative-energy · Post by **alternative-energy** » 13 Feb 2006, 20:16

We are installing a 3.24kwp PV system in April and just got in there with the last of the DTI grants. The generation deal with Good energy will give us 4.5p per kwh produced, over the year we should produce about 3,000kwh. We can also claim our ROC.
I have been in touch with GWiz and their electric car needs 9kwhs to charge it on trickle over a 6 hour period. It has a range of 40 miles. In the summer months i should be able to generate 10kwh+ each day through the PV system.

Does this senerio seem too good to be true?
I get paid for generating electricity which i then use to charge an electric car. The car is exempt of tax, congestion charge and free to park.

Ok, you have to buy the thing in the first place but could urban transport possibly be cheaper than this? (Apart from my bike)

Comments welcome

www.alternative-energy.co.uk

Joules · Post by **Joules** » 13 Feb 2006, 23:03

Sounds fantastic. Well done! It's nice to see someone else from Kent on the forum too

Did you find a way round the problem of continuing to generate in the event of a failure of the grid?

I'm still trying to get my head round what the most productive setup would be for me... I think I'm well situated for a wind turbine, but I'm inclined towards batteries rather than grid connection... Do you want to talk us through your decision-making process? Do your suppliers deal with other alternative energy systems?

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 14 Feb 2006, 09:20

Sounds excellent.

I suppose one thing about electric vehicles vs internal combustion engine vehicles is that electric motors are much easier to make than ICEs, and use a lot fewer resources and embodied energy.

I can certainly see scenarios in future where local transport is electrically powered - whether it be electric cars or trams or whatever. It may well be that in certain cases, it is easier to generate electricity (through a PV panel, nuclear, CHP etc) than to use liquid fuels.

Of course, fuel cell technology is also electric technology, so any future hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will also contain electric motors rather than ICEs.

I have heard it said (Olduvai Theory) that industrial civilisation should more correctly be called electromagnetic civilisation.

alternative-energy · Post by **alternative-energy** » 14 Feb 2006, 17:49

Do you want to talk us through your decision-making process?

We've mainly gone for on grid because of the benefits of export both financially and altruistically. I know that if there was a powercut the system switches off. If this does become a problem in the future we will simply charge batteries during the day for back up during the night. Or directly connect a few of the panels to an off grid system. After 5 years after the grant period we could change completely to off grid if we so wished.
On grid - off grid who knows...? Both have benefits and disadvantges.The important thing I think is the get a system up and running. We will have a log burner, PV and half a rainwater harvesting system.We are also interested in a wind turbine but will wait til the planning issues are changed, as i think they will be to 'permitted development' soon.

Our reasons for doing such things are partly because of the oil issue but also we believe in self responsibility and ethical living. Informing rather than hiding away in a bunker. We also believe in putting our money where our mouths are... action speaking louder than words if you like.

My site has lots more info if you wish to visit. BP even tried to buy my domain... cheeky B******s

Do your suppliers deal with other alternative energy systems?

Chelsfield solar have been very good and i can certainly recommend them so far, but they don't deal with other systems. Powertech solar seem to offer a comprehensive range and the owner Eric is forthcoming with information. Some companies i have dealt with a painfully slow and disorganised and i couldn't be doing with that. Not when I'm making a large investment.

www.alternative-energy.co.uk

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 14 Feb 2006, 18:39

www.alternative-energy.co.uk

Nice site, mate - you've had the same kind of idea as us - what can be done with a very ordinary house. I'll put up a link to your site from my home page (below).

Billhook · Post by **Billhook** » 14 Feb 2006, 19:13

Alternative energy -

First, I'd warmly applaud your determination to invest for princilple's sake.

Second, I'm wondering about the scaleability of this technology, with some possible limiting factors being:

the proportion of roofs pitched and south facing;

the net cost to you - >?8,000 for power source + vehicle ??,

the availablity of Govt. grants at > ?9,500 per vehicle's summer-power-supply

the availability of additional power supply to meet winter Elec vehicle demand

the opportunity cost of that use of treasury funds.

I'd be glad of your thoughts on the above constraints to try to find this option's national potential.

regards,

Bill

alternative-energy · Post by **alternative-energy** » 14 Feb 2006, 22:35

Andy

Thanks...Will do the same... there's a growing bunch of us...

Bill
Lots of Questions
I think every house has to be looked at individually. I would love a heat pump but i don't have the garden area.

Not everyone has a south facing roof as large as ours to fit PV so we are using it!

Net cost to us is expensive but hey so is buying any car. Haven't worked out the paybacks, if there are any, but it would be quicker than any ICE.

Charging will not be as good in winter we will have to supplement but still cheaper than buying petrol or diesel especially as we know what's going to happen to prices.

If there is no electricity supply it?s on the bike...and carry all those books, I work 4 miles from where I live (school teacher)...Working close to home is something we?re all gonna have to get used to.

opportunity cost... not sure what you mean here but as the PV grant is 'demonstration', I feel half the point is to work out how to integrate this technology in every day life. People who receive the grant should be telling others about how the system works and the benefits or failures financially as well as environmentally

At the present it is starting to look advantageous... A micro-generator can claim ROCs and use their own generated power and get paid for it as well. From our standpoint it looks like a goer for our situation but as i said before micro-gen at home will always be about harnessing what you've got.

On a national level i just don't know. i guess 1/3 of the houses have roof space for PV or solar thermal. Most houses could generate via a wind turbine but it wouldnt be reliable enough.
Personally i feel if we slapped PV everywhere and seriously reduced our wasteful ways we could be on the way to solving the problems that are waiting for us in the future. When we take responsibility for the electricity we generate we will want to put it to good use. Running a small car when necessary could be one such good use.

Hope that?s answered you questions and sorry if it hasn?t

Paul

Post by **mikepepler** » 15 Feb 2006, 08:55

alternative-energy wrote: Personally i feel if we slapped PV everywhere and seriously reduced our wasteful ways we could be on the way to solving the problems that are waiting for us in the future.

I agree in principle - putting up solar panels will improve our ability to supply electricity in future, and that will help maintain a satisfactory (although lower) standard of living. However, it's important to remember that electricity use only comprises about 18% of delivered energy, with all liquid fuels delivering about 42%, gas about 38% and solid fuels about 2%. These are 2001 DTI figure from the book referenced below, and are for delivered energy, not primary energy, so electricity implicitly includes coal+gas+nuclear.

In terms of sectors:
Transport: 2.31 exajoules
Domestic: 1.96 exajoules
Industry: 1.52 exajoules
Everything else: 0.92 exajoules

Total: 6.7 exajoules (figures above are rounded)

Also, the domestic sector breaks down as follows:
space heating: 57%
water heating: 25%
electrical appliances: 13%
cooking: 5%

So while solar PV is good, solar water heating is potentially better for reducing total fossil energy use, though obviously it should be there in addition to the PV. Space heating seems to be best addressed through good building design, but that's a problem for existing inefficient buildings. I think there are discussions elsewhere on the forums about this stuff. I suppose a wood-burning stove is part of the answer, but if we all have one we'll run out of trees.

Overall it's worth having the above figures in mind when thinking on a national scale, as transport is the biggest energy user, but domestic space and water heating is very close behind - a fact that not everyone is aware of.

(data from "Energy Systems and Sustainability", Boyle, Everett & Ramage, 2003)

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 15 Feb 2006, 11:31

So while solar PV is good, solar water heating is potentially better for reducing total fossil energy use, though obviously it should be there in addition to the PV. Space heating seems to be best addressed through good building design, but that's a problem for existing inefficient buildings. I think there are discussions elsewhere on the forums about this stuff. I suppose a wood-burning stove is part of the answer, but if we all have one we'll run out of trees.

I think we will find that everyone will have their own situation-dependent 'renewable solution':-

"Alternative Energy" (Paul) has PV and an electric car, which will save on liquid fuels and coal/gas/nuclear electricity generation capacity. He has a gas boiler, which could maybe be replaced with a micro-CHP unit in future.

I myself have a wood stove and solar thermal panel, which saves on natural gas in the main. I buy my electricity from Npower Juice, which saves on coal/gas/nuclear electricity generation. However, I run a Mini, which means I need liquid fuels.

I think the point is that not everyone can implement the same solution for their home, due to different factors, but that if we all do something, then the overall effect will be that we can all get by on much fewer resources.

Bandidoz · Post by **Bandidoz** » 15 Feb 2006, 14:52

alternative-energy wrote: Personally i feel if we slapped PV everywhere and seriously reduced our wasteful ways we could be on the way to solving the problems that are waiting for us in the future.

I'd prefer to see SWH on everyone's roof and PV attached to wind turbines and such-like.

alternative-energy · Post by **alternative-energy** » 15 Feb 2006, 17:50

I'd prefer to see SWH on everyone's roof and PV attached to wind turbines and such-like.

Yes this would be great, what are you doing to make this a reality?

After a very frustrating visit to my town and calling in at 4 different stationers all of which did not even stock recycled paper... No demand apparently... I came back on my bike with an empty rucsack!

My point is society, in general ,is miles behind the thinking that WE all take for granted. If I can't even buy recycled paper from a stationers in a town with a population of 50,000 what hope have we got? PV CHP SHW i don't really care, just get on with it and install something yourself that you are happy with and that will start to change opinions in the people around you. If you can't install for various reasons buy green power and hassle people who don't offer an environmental option when you know one is available. You won't inspire anyone to change without action yourself.

A quote from my site is...

To this end all of us must now support and inform each other in reducing our personal energy needs and start generating alternative energy through sustainable forms. We have to get serious about this issue.

Just think... when was it that you first heard about the concept of Global Warming? What has really been done to reduce Greenhouse Gas Emissions since then? We can't wait any longer. Let's get on with it!

Forgive me if I've gone off theme!!!

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 15 Feb 2006, 18:17

Forgive me if I've gone off theme!!!

Sounds just about spot on to me!!!!

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 15 Feb 2006, 22:29

Well said alternative-energy. A good kick up the back-side for most of us.

And rightly so too.

skeptik · Post by **skeptik** » 17 Feb 2006, 21:26

Only in America. Yup... that's an electric powered drag racer.

It's the land of the car... no matter what the power source... somewhere theres an American who will want to soup it up and race it...

See some more...
The Power of DC

PowerSwitch

PV and electric cars

PV and electric cars

Only in America...