Peak Oil and 911

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

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EmptyBee
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Post by EmptyBee »

Tess wrote: I think you should move on because you can't win, and you'll never know if you're right.

As for the people who've lost families, well it's not for me to tell them what to do or how to feel. But as for the conspiracists, I think they should leave it. Whether it's a fight for justice or an intellectual Bush-bashing ego-trip, they're still wasting time looking like, well, conspiracy theorists. There are other battles to fight.
You're right Tess, there is no chance of 'winning' in this context. There's no question that if you're in the business of getting public attention, supporting the conspiracist view of 9/11 is a gigantic millstone.

Clearly from the perspective of fighting for Peak Oil awareness it's best to drop 9/11. That doesn't stop it feeling like moral cowardice if you continue to have strong suspicions. But that's politics. In the end I think Jim Kunstler's position is, strategically at least, correct - 9/11 is a distraction, besides being a minefield of misinformation and disinformation.
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skeptik
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Post by skeptik »

EmptyBee wrote:
You're right Tess, there is no chance of 'winning' in this context. There's no question that if you're in the business of getting public attention, supporting the conspiracist view of 9/11 is a gigantic millstone.
I think thats right. I think its one of thsoe events which is destined to remain forever in the grey zone, like the assassination of Kennedy. Its evident that the 'official' story of the Kennedy assassination is bull, but I doubt we'll ever know exactly who was responsible.

I certainly donet intend to waste any time chasing my tail thinking about 9/11 or the London 'suicide bombers'

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=26402006
Suicide bombers? ...right well that makes a lot of sense then... not.
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Totally_Baffled
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Post by Totally_Baffled »

Clearly from the perspective of fighting for Peak Oil awareness it's best to drop 9/11.
Totally agree. Thats not to say people like Bozzio are not entitled to their opinion (and who knows in the fullness of time they maybe proved right), but at the same time I think it is worth sacrificing the potential link between 9/11 and PO so not to discredit the latter.
TB

Peak oil? ahhh smeg..... :(
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skeptik
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Post by skeptik »

EmptyBee wrote:
You're right Tess, there is no chance of 'winning' in this context. There's no question that if you're in the business of getting public attention, supporting the conspiracist view of 9/11 is a gigantic millstone.
I think thats right. I think its one of thsoe events which is destined to remain forever in the grey zone, like the assassination of Kennedy. Its evident that the 'official' story of the Kennedy assassination is bull, but I doubt we'll ever know exactly who was responsible.

I certainly don't intend to waste any time chasing my tail thinking about 9/11 or the London 'suicide bombers'

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=26402006
Suicide bombers? ...right well that makes a lot of sense then... not.
fishertrop
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Post by fishertrop »

How far back into the history of PO do you have to go before it's simply a super-fringe crackpot idea with no supporting evidence, no proper research or data, no qualified assements from people with the right background and is universally derided by everyone?

1990 ? (I don't know by the way.....)

A huge percentage of the western world still regard PO as a total crackpot notion, why do we think otherwise?

Personally I buy into PO because a lot of credible people have done a large-and-growing body of work that underpins the PO concept with data, analysis, informed discussion, reasonble projections and joining-the-dots with known facts. And when you look at nay-saying bodies and institutions they increasingly look like vested-interest players or highly politicised.

Like PO in the distant past, the 9/11 theories are all talk and no data - and extraordinary claims really do require extraordinary proof.

If enough smart and decent people did enough research into 9/11 I would say that they could come up with a theory (whatever it might be) that was substantiated by a lot of data and informed opinion. The fact that millions of people work in the global oil industry and few people would be close enough to the bits of 9/11 of most interest only makes any such investigation doubly hard.

Like many here, I find the official story flawed but also much of the counter theory both implausable and totally unsubstantiated. Like PO of old, it's also a haven for nut-jobs who have just as much of a personal agenda as does Dubya.

If you care about advancing the cause of PO awareness than it's my view you have to disassociate it from 9/11 and any other such theories - regardless of which get proved right in the long run.

I find M Ruppet to be like George Galloway: I neither like him nor trust him - but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

Matt Simmoms gets more done for PO in a day than Ruppet does in a year or a decade, why? Because as a card-carrying republican with only one message off-the-party-line and otherwise water-tight credentials and a fully supported argument, people listen to him and he gets press. Ruppet might be 100% right on everything he says ( :roll: ) but no-one will "get it" because of the way he sells (litteraly....) the message.

It's my view that people should do their own 9/11 research but that they MUST apply the same rigour to any conspiracy theory that they apply to the official one, moreover the counter-position must go the extra mile with evidence and data before it can be considered credible.
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Post by Bozzio »

Bandidoz wrote:There are a few articles on oilempire.us that identify this as bogus material (disinformation):
Oilempire is a very interesting site although I have my doubts about its authenticity. Its author is Mark Rabinowitz who is a debunker of the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Rabinowitz is closely associated with Ruppert who also debunks the 9/11 conpiracy theories prefering his own line of evidence. Both shun the no plane and demolition arguments and this has led to the idea that both men are really working for the PTB in some way, there to create mass confusion to hit the conspiracists head on. I'm somewhat confused as to why they would then talk about PO but again the argument is that they are there to disguise the real reasons for the attacks on Iraq and so on by using PO to divert attention from those seeking to uncover that it is really about power, money, oil and imperialism. In other words the push for oil may or may not be about PO but the PTB need to promote the theory as a perfect undercover excuse for the real intentions of the PNAC (who are the present US government)

I know, I know, it all sounds rubbish and I'm stupid to go down this route but this stuff really opens up the whole debate about PO for me. Why write a 674 page book on America at the end of the oil age and yet go to great lengths to state that 9/11 did not happen in the way the conspiracists say - what is the real intention of the book? And why does Rabinowitz create a stunning, maticulous, superbly scripted and illustrated web site in the form of oilempire to talk about the US and oil and yet does the same as Ruppert by attacking the conspiricy theorists with such fervour as to be quite sickening. Something doesn't add up. You will never hear Ruppert talk about PO on its own. He always has to mention 9/11 and how he knows that 9/11 definetely happened because of PO, as if it were an excuse, for which there should never be an excuse.

Now contrary to what you maybe thinking, I have no intention to discuss the evidence surrounding 9/11. I have only done this so far in my replies to Totally_Baffled to support my reasoning. I guess my line of debate here is to talk about whether 9/11 really has anything to do with PO or has PO been used, as I say above, to confuse the real reason behind GW's motives and divert attention away from 9/11 investigations. You are after all telling me to move on, and I entirely agree with you all, but maybe that's the intention. PO is the real problem you say, but is it really?

I have been following PO for almost 2 years now but I am confused when I hear the likes of Ruppert and look at oilempire. The message is very mixed.

Of course I know what to do; take it back to first principles and stick with Heinberg, Campbell and so on but my thinking outside of their reasoning still remains. Especially with people like Ruppert and Rabinowitz about.

If any of you have time you might like to read this article about Ruppert by the producer of a TV show in the States. This article used to be on DODGY TAX AVOIDERS.com (it might still be). There was a link to it by the same producer who posted a review of Rupperts book.

http://www.wingtv.net/ruppertwingtv.html
Nico Haupt was right. The war games that Ruppert is pushing full-bore are nothing more than a LIMITED HANGOUT in case the government gets backed into a corner. Thus, responsibility can be defrayed away from them (the true guilty parties within our own government who planned, executed, and covered-up their crimes) while still perpetuating the myth of Arab hijackers. It?s a classic red herring, especially when it?s coming from Mike Ruppert ? a guy who absolutely refuses to confront the true crux of this matter ? the controlled demolition of each tower. The same can be said for other members of what I call the ?9-11 Cabal.? These are individuals who have quite an extensive amount of media access and dominate the 9-11 conferences; yet never bring this information to the public, while at the same time excluding guests and voices that are trying to promote the truth. And I haven?t even mentioned Ruppert?s obsession with trying to distract people with PEAK OIL ? a completely unproven theory that is once again used as a major source of distraction.
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skeptik
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Post by skeptik »

Bozzio wrote:PO is the real problem you say, but is it really?
Apply logic. DO you accept that oil is a fossil fuel formed geologically over millions of years from the bodies of marine microorganisms trapped in sedimentary rocks under a very specific set of conditions?

That it is therefore present in a small (relative to the size of the Earth) finite quantity in the upper part of the Earths crust?

Logically then it must be 'the real problem' . What other problems are more pressing than the depletion of finite non-renewable resources which we currently depend on and the degradation of our renewable ecological support systems? I cant think of any.

On the resource depletion side oil seems to me both the most important and immediately pressing. No matter what scenarios I run through in my own head I cant NOT see it kicking in as a huge problem sometime during the next 10 - 15 years. ( if it isnt already - who knows? ) It is the real problem that governments should already be dealing with - the other problem is that they aren't.
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Post by MacG »

fishertrop wrote: It's my view that people should do their own 9/11 research but that they MUST apply the same rigour to any conspiracy theory that they apply to the official one, moreover the counter-position must go the extra mile with evidence and data before it can be considered credible.
But... but... The official theory IS a conspiracy theory! The official theory is that a bunch of guys in caves in Afghanistan conspired ...
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Post by wayne72 »

Tess wrote:
Bozzio wrote:We are all entitled to talk about such subjects. It was reading about 9/11 that lead me to discover PO and it might just do the same for others.
There are other sites which focus on conspiracies and if they mention peak oil and lead people here, that's great. I don't see why we should return the favour. If someone's already reading powerswitch we dont need the '9/11 crap' to bring them to a knowledge of peak oil now do we?

That said, I actually dont care all that much so long as the 9/11 thread stays hidden away in a shameful dark corner. I might even join in, just for fun. :)
Part of me agrees with Tess, although I think that 9/11 may have more to do with Peak Oil than we care to like. I think Tess may have been NLPed into thinking all conspiracy theorists are geeks who ware wooley jumpers knitted by their gran - you know the way those 2 guys on Paramount Channel portray them between programmes. This is the way the media like to portray so called Conspiracy theorists, although classing somthing as Conspiracy is an easy way to dismiss answering a question and instead ridicule the question.

I've been looking a lot in to Neuro Linguistic Programmining for a while now and it gets quite scarey watching the actions etc. that Politicians, News Reporters, etc. use. Its a great way for dumbing down the masses and make the ones who use it seem in authority and higher knowledge, so the masses believe whatever they say.
Enjoy yourself with the time remaining, I've decided I'm going to.
dr_doom
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Post by dr_doom »

I regularly read the publishings of mike ruppert, alex jones, and several other "conspiracy theorists".

Mike Ruppert is good in that he believes peak oil is real and he is "scared" that the elites have a plan to depopulate the world (because of PO). I feel though he doesn't *really* understand the power structures that exist in the world.

Alex Jones obviously most people here find obnoxious which is understandable. But he is very good, i've learnt more about history watching his show that i ever did from actually studying history at school. Did you know BP sponsored a coup d'etat in iran during the 1950s against mossadec?

Alex believes peak oil is a scam by the globalists; so they can consolidate their power, and depopulate the world by 85% to 1 billion people. Simply because they are evil incarnate.

So there is a common thread running here; both conspiracy theorists believe the elites sitting at the top of the power structure want to kill lots of people. Both conspiracy theorists also believe 9 11 was an inside job.

We are not living in a democracy; the bank of england is a privately owned corporation owned by the rothschilds which in turn owns all central banks around the world including the Federal Reserve in the United States. The United States is being economically destroyed by design.
I would be surprised if the US dollar does not collapse in value dramatically within the next 12 months.

The only question that remains in my mind is how deep the rabbit hole goes. Do the globalists just own & control europe and the united states, or is china and russia under their control as well? Apparently David Rockefeller has been quoted on the history channel saying he thinks the Mao model of government is good.

It will be an interesting year.
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Post by Bandidoz »

Bozzio wrote:Why write a 674 page book on America at the end of the oil age and yet go to great lengths to state that 9/11 did not happen in the way the conspiracists say.
Have you read Rubicon?
Olduvai Theory (Updated) (Reviewed)
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
RevdTess
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Post by RevdTess »

wayne72 wrote:I think Tess may have been NLPed into thinking all conspiracy theorists are geeks who ware wooley jumpers knitted by their gran
Not at all, I'm naturally very suspicious of governments - they get caught out lying all the time and quite capable of suspending all moral considerations when it suits them. People feel free to do all kinds of things when they find themselves above the law.

I'm not the one who thinks conspiracy theorists are anoraks - I'm pointing out that everyone else does, and that therefore the label sticks, and ruins any argument it comes into contact with.

In only the past year I've seen peak oil go from kooky fringe theory to something that mainstream commentators discuss frequently on bloomberg. My boss still mocks me whenever I forward evidence from my 'anarchist friends' as he calls them, but these days the stories about peak oil come from reuters as often as they come from the peaknik sites. You can't buy that sort of credibility.
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Post by RevdTess »

All this stuff about the elites wanting to depopulate the world and collapse the US economy. Can someone explain why they'd want to do that? Aside from the obviously ecological benefits of course. The motivations of all these conspiracies seem oddly contrarian.
Last edited by RevdTess on 08 Feb 2006, 08:45, edited 1 time in total.
wayne72
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Post by wayne72 »

Tess wrote:
wayne72 wrote:I think Tess may have been NLPed into thinking all conspiracy theorists are geeks who ware wooley jumpers knitted by their gran
Not at all, I'm naturally very suspicious of governments - they get caught out lying all the time and quite capable of suspending all moral considerations when it suits them. People feel free to do all kinds of things when they find themselves above the law.

I'm not the one who thinks conspiracy theorists are anoraks - I'm pointing out that everyone else does, and that therefore the label sticks, and ruins any argument it comes into contact with.

In only the past year I've seen peak oil go from kooky fringe theory to something that mainstream commentators discuss frequently on bloomberg. My boss still mocks me whenever I forward evidence from my 'anarchist friends' as he calls them, but these days the stories about peak oil come from reuters as often as they come from the peaknik sites. You can't buy that sort of credibility.
Yeah that makes sense to be fair.

I'm just losing hope in giving a to$$ to be honest. I think we've missed the bus as far as raising awareness goes. What's needed, if it's not already too late, is a Formula 1 advance in technology scenario - by this I mean we need it to hit the mainstream yesterday or there's not much point. I'm only sticking around this forum these days just to see what's new, you could say i'm just "watching and waiting." I don't think the wait is long now though! My evidence is the one that friends, etc. are using to ridicule me with of late, the record profits of the Oil companies! Well that's great but all that means is we've peaked as peak Oil companies will record their highest ever profits during PO, hence no investment of the record profits in to new forms of energy, Oil Shales, Oil refinerys, etc. Of course my friends just say "Man, your mad! :0)"

We'll see in 2008-2009 :twisted:
Enjoy yourself with the time remaining, I've decided I'm going to.
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Post by Bandidoz »

the record profits of the Oil companies
Paraphrase "What would Jesus do?" with "What would oil company execs do?". Enjoy it while it lasts!
Olduvai Theory (Updated) (Reviewed)
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
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