Iran warns of 'consequences' if referred to UN re uranium

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mikepepler
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Post by mikepepler »

Totally_Baffled wrote: That means they forsee Uranium lasting even longer than that!

If there is a genuine issue with Uranium , then the Iranians wont half be kicking themselves! (why did we bother ! :)) :wink:
Remember that Uranium has one property that no other fuels have - an exceptionally high energy density. If you believe there will be a future shortage, you can buy up a few hundred (or thousand?) tons now while the market is relatively cheap. I've seen calculations worked through that show if Britain built 10 new reactors, we could store 25 years worth of fuel in a single small warehouse. Try doing that with coal, oil or gas!

Of course, from Iran's point of view, you then have a very tempting target for people to try and steal from you!
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

How realistic is it to buy up large amounts though - with a peak oil hat on and thinking about flow rates. Surely the annual global production of uranium couldn't ramp up to deliver 25 years supply in one year. Regarding oil and coal... isn't that what oil, gas or coal in the ground is, a large stash?
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Post by fishertrop »

Totally_Baffled wrote: Ahhhh , so there isnt a problem with Uranium resources then. Excellent.

Irans gas reserves at current consumption will last over 100 years according to BP.

If they kept all the gas for themselves then at current Iranian consumption there gas reserves would last tens of thousands of years!!

That means they forsee Uranium lasting even longer than that!

If there is a genuine issue with Uranium , then the Iranians wont half be kicking themselves! (why did we bother ! :)) :wink:

Iranian gas reserves are 970 tcf and consumption is 8.4bcf (FYI) :)
Sorry TB, I'm going to have to disagree with you a couple of points :D

If we are using the BP estimates for Iranian gas we can use the nuclear power industry estimates for world uranium supply. Both are large and both are questionable, but we should use them together.

Why not build a network of nuclear plants, with a long (ish) term future (like France did) and then sell as much gas as you can shift to hungry customers? That's a valid economic strategy, more so if prices go higher, so just from a "free market" perspective, that's a perfectly valid reason.

Recently a bunch of UK power generators stopped generating and sold their gas contracts back into the market for a profit. That's the free market. Did the generators have a "duty" to provide electricty because they have gas? Does Iran have a duty ot use gas for internal power instead of selling it for profit?

Surely they are free to choose?

Moreover though, and as others have said, as an NPT signatory the IAEA has a commitment to supply nuclear power information to Iran and to help them build a nuclear power infrastructure, if Iran requests such.

The fact that we wish the NPT was in fact the "nuclear facilities not allowed in the middle east, only the west (et al)" treaty, and try to enforce it as tho that was the case, doesn't mean we are right.

Moving from power to weapons; there is a deep-rooted cultural position in the west that it's ok for us, and israel, to have nuclear weapons but not for any other middle easten country to have them. I find little reason to base this on other than a fundamental mistrust of certain cultures.

There is questionaable evidence at best that Iran wants the bomb, but if they do, why should we stop them?

Will they first-strike israel knowing they will be devestated by the response? MAD has always been truely mad but nevertheless effective.

What's the difference between a decent sized chemical weapons programme and limited nuclear programme? Not much, and many countries have the former.

I can see no other route - apart from force - to preventing Iran legitimately aquiriing both nuclear power and latterly weapons skills other than by the established powers meeting all their NPT commitments to activly persue disarmament - anything less invites allcomers to try and "join the club".
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Post by fishertrop »

Also, this morning I laughed loudly while eating my toast at a report on the Beeb by a well known correspondant on the Iranian issue - he said, authoritively, that "oil sanctions against Iran would be very effective as oil forms a huge part of Iran's export earnings".

:D :D :D :D :D

I'm still laughing now....
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Ballard
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Post by Ballard »

Last night they aired this issue on the Beeb, the discussion was given a distinct angle along the lines of "should we let the Iranians develop Nuclear weapons". (Which is not what they are attempting, apparently). They then interviewed an Israeli Minister about the issue, who obviously ranted on about the Evil Iranians for a bit, there was no-one interviewed from the other side, and I got the distinct impression that the interviewer knew that the discussion was totally biased and was slightly embarrassed about it but had to tow the company line.

I believe that we will see a gradual ramping up of anti Iranian Propaganda as the 'allies' prepare the ground for another attack, by fostering anti Iranian attitudes in the media.

Replace WMD?s with Nuclear Weapons, rinse and repeat.
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Totally_Baffled
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Post by Totally_Baffled »

Sorry TB, I'm going to have to disagree with you a couple of points :D
No worries, I like a good debate. Plus I get to learn stuff :)

Why not build a network of nuclear plants, with a long (ish) term future (like France did) and then sell as much gas as you can shift to hungry customers? That's a valid economic strategy, more so if prices go higher, so just from a "free market" perspective, that's a perfectly valid reason.

Recently a bunch of UK power generators stopped generating and sold their gas contracts back into the market for a profit. That's the free market. Did the generators have a "duty" to provide electricty because they have gas? Does Iran have a duty ot use gas for internal power instead of selling it for profit?

Surely they are free to choose?
Of course they are free to choose. But why not use the gas internally and actually make MORE profit?

Rememer the money Iran makes on her gas will have to pay for nuclear construction , decommisioning, uranium etc etc. We all know nuclear is FAR more expensive than gas, so this is a money pit, and economic no brainer.

The UK went nuclear pre north sea (mainly) to avoid being overreliant on foreign supplier. Iran doesnt have this excuse.
Moreover though, and as others have said, as an NPT signatory the IAEA has a commitment to supply nuclear power information to Iran and to help them build a nuclear power infrastructure, if Iran requests such.

The fact that we wish the NPT was in fact the "nuclear facilities not allowed in the middle east, only the west (et al)" treaty, and try to enforce it as tho that was the case, doesn't mean we are right.

Moving from power to weapons; there is a deep-rooted cultural position in the west that it's ok for us, and israel, to have nuclear weapons but not for any other middle easten country to have them. I find little reason to base this on other than a fundamental mistrust of certain cultures.

There is questionaable evidence at best that Iran wants the bomb, but if they do, why should we stop them?

Will they first-strike israel knowing they will be devestated by the response? MAD has always been truely mad but nevertheless effective.

What's the difference between a decent sized chemical weapons programme and limited nuclear programme? Not much, and many countries have the former.

I can see no other route - apart from force - to preventing Iran legitimately aquiriing both nuclear power and latterly weapons skills other than by the established powers meeting all their NPT commitments to activly persue disarmament - anything less invites allcomers to try and "join the club".
This is fair enough, but then is it a good idea to allow nuclear to be developed in a nation whose leader wants to wipe others "off the map"?

Fair enough , Israel has nukes, but has she used them? Even when provicated by Iraq, they showed some responisibility and did not use them .

I am not confident i can say the same about Iran or NK.

BTW, Iran is in breach of the NPT.

If the Iranians were smart they should go for the Russian deal. Let the Russians deal with the Uranium enrichment, then Iran can have nuclear energy and the weapons issue is taken out of the equation.

One day in the future when Iran stops electing nutcases, they can start doing it themselves.
TB

Peak oil? ahhh smeg..... :(
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Post by EmptyBee »

Totally_Baffled wrote: This is fair enough, but then is it a good idea to allow nuclear to be developed in a nation whose leader wants to wipe others "off the map"?

Fair enough , Israel has nukes, but has she used them? Even when provicated by Iraq, they showed some responisibility and did not use them .

I am not confident i can say the same about Iran or NK.
If we make the assumption that Iran is pursuing nuclear power as a means to aquiring nuclear weapons at some point in the future it's worth considering for a moment who, or what exactly that might threaten. Despite the overblown revolutionary rhetoric spouted by Ahmadinejad I think you have to look at this rationally. It is an absurd suggestion that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons in order to destroy Israel, because they'd be anihilated themselves as a consequence: MAD.

The obvious thing that a nuclear armed Iran would really threaten is the ability of the US and its allies to wage unilateral war in region or against Iran in particular. The US or Israel cannot contemplate waging war against nuclear powers. The truth is that any Iranian nuke would be a primarily defensive deterrant, just as ours was in the Cold War era.

The other thing that is threatened (and arguably this has already happened thanks to a certain AQ Khan) is wider nuclear proliferation. The fact is that the NPT calls for all existing nuclear powers to move towards total disarmament, as unrealistic as that might sound, but that still means we're applying it selectively in the case of Iran where we only made a few noises when India and Pakistan went nuclear.
Iran is entirely justified under the terms of the NPT to pursue a nuclear energy program. The fact that they've chosen to pursue this program in secret isn't so much a measure of their duplicity but a consequence of the efforts of 'the international community' to thwart Iran's legitimate goals.

The election of leaders like Ahmadinejad is also entirely predictable when you consider that it's been on the recieving end of increasingly hostile US activity, from wars in neighbouring Afghanistan and Iraq to the activities of US sponsored terrorists - the MEK - within their own borders. The moderates (like Rafsanjaani) have been marginalised thanks to this political climate, and if indeed the Mullahs are pursuing nuclear weapons as a matter of urgency it's not hard to see why.
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Post by MacG »

Found a decent wetting of the various arguments here:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/010906I.shtml

If the people in Washington really are completely crazy, March 2006 will indeed be the end of the world as we know it. But I dont think they are completely crazy.
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Post by Joe »

This interactive diagram of Iran's political system is quite interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/m ... efault.stm

It suggests that Ahmadinejad is not quite as influential as his presidential title might suggest.

I suppose you could draw parallels between Iran's President & "Supreme Leader" arrangement and Dubya & Cheney - the only difference being that Iran are more explicit about who's really in charge.
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Post by Joe »

MacG wrote:Found a decent wetting of the various arguments here:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/010906I.shtml

If the people in Washington really are completely crazy, March 2006 will indeed be the end of the world as we know it. But I dont think they are completely crazy.
Yeah, very interesting. This really does illustrate how insane Bush & co would be to go into Iran. If they did, one can only hope that Blair isn't stupid enough to follow them in again :(
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Post by MacG »

Joe wrote:Yeah, very interesting. This really does illustrate how insane Bush & co would be to go into Iran. If they did, one can only hope that Blair isn't stupid enough to follow them in again :(
It's a fair guess that there would be more "problems" with Russian NG in that case. I read a lot about US media spending a lot of time on "Iranian nukes" and "the threat from Iran" and such, but we dont seem to se very much of that here. It's a fair guess that quite a lot of quiet diplomacy is ongoing.

In the mean time, practice some common Russian sentences. For example "How can I serve you better, Master?" and "I'll bend forward while you grease up".
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Post by Joe »

MacG wrote:It's a fair guess that there would be more "problems" with Russian NG in that case. I read a lot about US media spending a lot of time on "Iranian nukes" and "the threat from Iran" and such, but we dont seem to se very much of that here. It's a fair guess that quite a lot of quiet diplomacy is ongoing.

In the mean time, practice some common Russian sentences. For example "How can I serve you better, Master?" and "I'll bend forward while you grease up".

:lol:
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Post by Totally_Baffled »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4609572.stm

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Taking Iran's oil output off the world market would be a "major blow", Dr Takin said.

High oil prices have weighed on world growth and driven inflation
"Prices would shoot up," he said. "But how high they will shoot up is anybody's guess."
Remember - central banks fight rising inflation with higher interest rates. Are we not over the BoE's target of 2% already?
TB

Peak oil? ahhh smeg..... :(
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Post by clv101 »

There was an Israeli general interviewed in Radio 4 this morning talking about the Iran nuclear thing... he said that we should move away from diplomacy and impose an oil embargo on Iran. I can't help thinking he had it upside down, isn't an oil embargo what Iran will impose on us rather than the other way around? Crazy situation this... I still have a have time believing "the west" would do anything stupid enough to take some 3mbpd off the world market.
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Post by grinu »

They may not need to fight for an oil embargo in any case.....

http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleVi ... %20Affairs
LONDON, January 16 (IranMania) - Iran's warning over the weekend that oil prices could increase "higher than what the West expects" should be taken very seriously, market analysts said Monday, AFP reported.

According Investec's Bruce Evers, Iran "could turn around and say, we are stopping exports completely, which would probably cause a huge spike in the price because the shortfall could not be met".

Calling a halt to exports in the world's fourth biggest crude producer remained a "distinct possibility (and) that is what is worrying crude markets at the moment", he added.
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