Why Whitehall hates solar panels

[Kieran]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... anels.html

[Keepz]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... anels.html

Pile of complete and utter toadsh*t. The reason not to like solar is that in this country it gives extremely poor value for money both in terms of KWh generated per £ spent and in terms of CO2 saved per £ spent. You could produce far more electricity and/or save far more carbon by spending the same amount of money on almost any other technology.

It's worth in particular looking through the comments underneath the article for the contribution by one Simon, who shows how the German policy has actually increased global CO2 emissions, by increasing the cost of solar installation in Africa and hence forcing Africa to get more of its energy from inefficient old fossil fuel plants.

[RenewableCandy]

I get your point re. VFM but in order to get solar PV grants as a Brit you have to demonstrate that you've already done a lot of the "better-returns-for-your-cash" stuff such as cool light-bulbs, loft insulation and wall-stuffing. This gets over the worst cases, but even so there's a case to be made for deploying such expensive kit in a place where it'll provide a quicker return on investment (or a better % pa, depending on your point of view).

Having said all that, if they're on my roof they're a lot less likely to get nicked than if they were in, say, Zim or ZA.

[kenneal - lagger]

I have a client at the moment who is doing an eco renovation on a 70s/80s house. We're insulating it to near Passivhaus standards so he's spending quite a bit on it.

He had a quote to put PV on his roof which, unfortunately face east/west, and the company were trying to persuade him to put panels on both faces to get a full days generation. I've tried to persuade him that that would be a waste of materials and that he should put a few panels on the flat roofed dormer, where they can face south, to give an emergency supply and invest any money in a community scheme locally. I think I have won.

We really should be thinking about how we can most efficiently use what resources we have left rather than selling what we have to make the most profit while we can. Unfortunately, government support for the renewables industry is so bad that they see a punter with a bit of money and try and grab it whether or not it is the best investment for the punter. Short term they may make some money, but longer term all they will do is put people off renewables because there will be loads of inefficient installations around.

[biffvernon]

German policy has actually increased global CO2 emissions, by increasing the cost of solar installation in Africa and hence forcing Africa to get more of its energy from inefficient old fossil fuel plants.

I wonder how true that really is. And having wondered for a few moments I conclude it is tosh.

[adam2]

German policy has actually increased global CO2 emissions, by increasing the cost of solar installation in Africa and hence forcing Africa to get more of its energy from inefficient old fossil fuel plants.

I wonder how true that really is. And having wondered for a few moments I conclude it is tosh.

I also think that it is tosh.
The widespread use of PV in Germany would be expected to increase prices in the very short term. In the near term, only a certain number of PV modules exist, and any increase in demand would be expected to increase prices, perhaps to the point were others cant afford it.

However in the medium or longer term, the increased demand would be expected to stimulate increased production, with the likleyhood of reduced prices due to the benifits of mass production.

The very large scale of grid tied PV may be unwise in temperate countries since maximum production tends to be at times of least demand.
At present though the amount of PV is too small for this to be a consideration.

In warm climates, considerable power is used for A/C and other refrigeration, and in such cases large scale PV has the great advantage of peak production being at about the time of peak demand.

[Kieran]

The very large scale of grid tied PV may be unwise in temperate countries since maximum production tends to be at times of least demand.

Also depends on how much longer temperate countries continue to have temperate climates.

[goslow]

I reckon that on one hand, while we are still underdeveloped in wind capacity in the UK, that any money spent on PV would be better spent on developing more wind turbines, surely more cost effective in KW per £; on the other hand, you are completely in charge of your own roof and don't have to deal with nimbys when you invest in solar PV!

new feed in tariffs should make the investment in microgeneration much more attractive, and if combined with one of these pay as you save deals to cover the upfront cost, might just clinch it for many folk.....

[adam2]

For large scale use, I would agree that wind power is better suited than PV in the UK.
Wind power is more abundant in the winter in the UK which is when the demand is greatest.
If sufficient wind turbines are instaled in different areas, then this somwhat reduces the amount of coventional power plants needed. It is allways windy in the winter somwhere in the UK, therefore a % of wind power would allways be available.

PV on the other hand does not contribute anything on a winter evening, the time of peak demand.
PV does of course reduce the coal or gas burnt in conventional power stations, thereby reducing climate changing emisions.
It does not however reduce the need for conventional power plant construction for the winter evening peak.

The great advantage of PV is that it is simple, safe, and almost fit and forget, and can be installed almost anywhere, unlike wind turbines.

[RenewableCandy]

Incredibly there are PV nimbies here in York. What I want to know is, if I strap one to my roof will I get any useful energy out of it (in the form of hot air, for example), or do I have to tie it to the mains ?

[adam2]

Incredibly there are PV nimbies here in York. What I want to know is, if I strap one to my roof will I get any useful energy out of it (in the form of hot air, for example), or do I have to tie it to the mains ?

A single PV module wont produce that much and is unlikely to justify the cost of a grid tie inverter, and the official inspection.

A single PV module would however be useful for battery charging, with the battery being used for limited lighting.
That could be very valuable indeed in case of prolonged grid failure, but should be considered more of a disaster prep, than an energy saving idea.

A single solar thermal panel can produce a useful amount of hot air in cold but bright weather.

Or did you mean attaching the NIMBY to the roof
That would be entertaining, but probably produce nothing usefull, and might cause a noise nuisance.
Connecting the NIMBY to the grid could also be entertaining, but would absorb grid power, not create it.

NIMBYs are like slinkys, they serve no useful purpose whatsoever, but bring a smile to your face if pushed down a flight of stairs

[kenneal - lagger]

NIMBYs are like slinkys, they serve no useful purpose whatsoever, but bring a smile to your face if pushed down a flight of stairs

[fifthcolumn]

Or did you mean attaching the NIMBY to the roof
That would be entertaining, but probably produce nothing usefull, and might cause a noise nuisance.
Connecting the NIMBY to the grid could also be entertaining, but would absorb grid power, not create it.

NIMBYs are like slinkys, they serve no useful purpose whatsoever, but bring a smile to your face if pushed down a flight of stairs

Hilarious. Nice one mate.