Greens told there is no alternative to fossil fuels

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 21 Jun 2009, 22:34

Times Online - 21/06/09

LISTEN to ministers and green campaigners and you would think that we are on a happy path to greener energy, with renewable sources of power freeing us from reliance on fossil fuels.

It is a pipe dream, according to a leader of Saudi Arabia’s oil industry. Abdallah Jum’ah, who stepped down last year as chief executive of Saudi Aram-co, the state-owned oil company, said objective assessment of the world’s energy needs showed renewable resources would provide only a minute share of what was required. Oil, gas and coal would remain the fuels of choice - and there was plenty of oil left, he told the Royal Academy of Engineering last week.

Article continues ...

Pessimissed · Post by **Pessimissed** » 22 Jun 2009, 10:16

This is a pretty huge admission, right? Not sure about that "plenty of oil left" quip though.

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 22 Jun 2009, 12:24

There is somthing in his assertion. Imagine trying to source and process the raw materials, manufacture, transport, erect,install and maintain say a 1MW wind turbine without the input of oil fuel!

It would be so tricky as to be impossible.

Adam1 · Post by **Adam1** » 22 Jun 2009, 13:10

"There is no alternative" - where have we heard that before. There are always alternatives!

I think his statement illustrates how trapped the Saudi Arabian elite are. They cannot conceive of life beyond fossil fuels.

fifthcolumn · Post by **fifthcolumn** » 22 Jun 2009, 16:44

Adam1 wrote:"There is no alternative" - where have we heard that before. There are always alternatives!

I think his statement illustrates how trapped the Saudi Arabian elite are. They cannot conceive of life beyond fossil fuels.

Agreed. They have a lot of sunk costs on oil production and they know how to make a lot of money from it.

Ask them to organise building battery plants, windmill plants etc etc and running the logistics, they'll be screwed.

For THEM there is no alternative to oil.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 22 Jun 2009, 18:16

Adam1 wrote:"There is no alternative" - where have we heard that before. There are always alternatives!

But are there adequate alternatives or even sufficient alternatives?

fifthcolumn · Post by **fifthcolumn** » 22 Jun 2009, 18:28

kenneal wrote:
Adam1 wrote:"There is no alternative" - where have we heard that before. There are always alternatives!
But are there adequate alternatives or even sufficient alternatives?

That's the question isn't it?
I'm fairly convinced by the evidence that we could convert our cities to run on renewables and electricity the way the Norwegians have done.
Will we do it? Is there enough time before a crunch comes?

I'm not hopeful on either of the two in the short or mid term, but over the course of our children's lives I think we will.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 22 Jun 2009, 18:41

The population density of the Scandinavian countries is far less than ours, which allows them to use renewables such as hydro and wood, where we wouldn't have enough to keep up our present lifestyles with our present numbers.

fifthcolumn · Post by **fifthcolumn** » 22 Jun 2009, 19:12

kenneal wrote:The population density of the Scandinavian countries is far less than ours, which allows them to use renewables such as hydro and wood, where we wouldn't have enough to keep up our present lifestyles with our present numbers.

Most of Norway is mountains.
That's true of Scotland, but is the same true of England?
There is also the oft quoted "Britain has enough wind for all of Europe".
Surely, with all the mountains in Scotland, some HVDC links to Norway we could build enough wind and pumped storage to keep the lights on and run a few hundred thousand trams and electric trucks?

You will note I'm not arguing for trying to run 40 million electric cars off of renewables on our small island, but I'm pretty sure we could keep a public transport and electrified logistics system similar to that of Oslo running in each of our major cities.

Especially given that London already has the underground which was mainly electric last time I checked.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 22 Jun 2009, 22:44

fifthcolumn wrote:There is also the oft quoted "Britain has enough wind for all of Europe".

Unfortunately most of that wind comes from the NIMBY's who are against wind.

marknorthfield · Post by **marknorthfield** » 23 Jun 2009, 10:09

Clearly there's a vested interest in the status quo, that much is obvious. No mention of climate change whatsoever (unless that's what he meant by 'political rhetoric'). Considering how sunny it is in SA, it's a shame they can't think outside their corrupt little box just a tiny bit harder.

I'm interested in the '15 trillion barrels' in reserves mentioned. Quite a large figure on the face of it. I presume this is referring to more than just oil? The article left it ambiguous.

IanG · Post by **IanG** » 23 Jun 2009, 11:00

Roger Adair wrote:There is somthing in his assertion. Imagine trying to source and process the raw materials, manufacture, transport, erect,install and maintain say a 1MW wind turbine without the input of oil fuel!

It would be so tricky as to be impossible.

I think thats why people say lets do something now, whilst we have a national grid and capability to do something....

fifthcolumn · Post by **fifthcolumn** » 25 Jun 2009, 00:31

IanG wrote: I think thats why people say lets do something now, whilst we have a national grid and capability to do something....

Luckily the UK is an island though. Wind turbines made elsewhere could be shipped to the UK relatively cheaply (by coal powered freighters for example), though it's likely that an impoverished banana republic such as the UK is becoming could hardly afford many of them.

IanG · Post by **IanG** » 25 Jun 2009, 06:40

we could always reverse the trend and start manufacturing our selves.

I think proven manufacture in the UK

But I think one manufacturer closed its plant in the isle of white

ziggy12345 · Post by **ziggy12345** » 25 Jun 2009, 08:54

Vestas? I thought it was still operating?