BNP Powerswitch poll

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

Moderator: Peak Moderation

Which best describes your view of the BNP?

They are evil and dangerous and would take this country down the same route as the nazis took Germany if given the chance
27
84%
Their economic policies are wrong but otherwise they talk some sense
1
3%
It is wrong to compare them with the nazis (please expand in a post below)
0
No votes
I don't think the country would be affected by their rise to power
1
3%
I think they are misunderstood by the 'liberal elite' of this country
2
6%
I don't think I would be affected by their rise to power
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

Jakell
Posts: 285
Joined: 10 Jan 2008, 20:36
Location: The North

Post by Jakell »

marknorthfield wrote:

Jakell - I agree that we should not be complacent in the sense of exposing the BNP's intellectual inadequacies and constitutional racism. However, I've heard enough of Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons already to know that they're going to struggle to keep up the smooth talk.
I think they can keep up the smooth talk, the party has become large enough to for them to effectively insulate themselves from any unpleasantness from below, and the party has enough momentum now that they do not have to try too hard.

I reckon the egg-throwing antics of the UAF are a little outdated now, although it did bring a smile to my face. Trouble is that they have become very good at creating an intellectual fog around their more controversial beliefs which, even though fundamentally dishonest, is also effective
User avatar
clv101
Site Admin
Posts: 10556
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Contact:

Post by clv101 »

Smooth talk? Griffin sounds like a moron whenever he's in the media? Momentum? I understood fewer people voted for the BNP this time round that last time, the MEP's just the result of lower turnout for the main parties (there's no suggestion there was lower turnout amongst BNP supports).

The only thing they have in their favor is the money and legitimacy from their MEP seats.
Jakell
Posts: 285
Joined: 10 Jan 2008, 20:36
Location: The North

Post by Jakell »

clv101 wrote:Smooth talk? Griffin sounds like a moron whenever he's in the media? Momentum? I understood fewer people voted for the BNP this time round that last time, the MEP's just the result of lower turnout for the main parties (there's no suggestion there was lower turnout amongst BNP supports).
I meant smooth relative to how they used to sound. Griffin usually comes over badly on the MSM, but I've seen clips of him speaking to his party and he comes over pretty well, not at all raving.. However these are probably selected clips.

i understand they got less votes overall, but seat-wise they did ok. As they are the 'new BNP', they have probably had a honeymoon period and now we will start seeing the true response to them.
marknorthfield
Posts: 177
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Bracknell

Post by marknorthfield »

Vortex,

I spent some time talking to a former East German man at a party yesterday evening. The conversation weaved around somewhat, but along the way we touched on the differences between the UK and Germany in terms of politics, policing and attitudes to alcohol and food. He thinks the police here are incredibly relaxed, especially when it comes to driving offences. He also considers our desire for quantity rather than quality (with alcohol) says rather a lot about our national psyche.

How does this link to the discussion? Well, I think people in this country are generally (important word) not inclined to demonstrate strength of feeling, nor keen on overly strict regulation. We simply don't care too much about the 'quality' and 'exactness' of things, because to do so would impose unnecessary constraints on behaviour. Sure, there can (and will) be tension if it seems like there is inequitable treatment going on between different groups of people, but that's as far as it goes. Fair play is key. We do not expect too much of life, the over-riding mantra being 'mustn't grumble' (even if we do with our friends). Complaints are embarrassing; queues a national pastime.

As a consequence, we're extremely unlikely to get anywhere near the tipping point where certain sections of society are going to be sent packing. It just isn't a very British thing to do. Stronger immigration controls are a possibility, as mentioned previously, but that comes down to a pragmatic sense of what we can afford rather than any concern about preserving our national identity.

The conflict in NI was certainly nasty, but it was fundamentally a religious one; the Balkans similarly. We don't have a dominant religion in this country; again, a reflection of our general desire not to have our behaviour overly circumscribed. We don't get passionate in public about much other than sport or the occasional celebrity death. Alcohol fuelled violence is a weekend ritual, nothing more.

It's no use pointing to Nazi Germany and saying 'it could happen here', because it simply wouldn't. This has nothing to do with softness (we'll get harder again in due course) and everything to do with our island mentality.

Chris,

I was being slightly sarcastic using the term 'smooth talk'! All the recent interviews I've seen or heard with the BNP have proved darkly laughable. The exposure they craved will prove their undoing.

You're right about the figures too: I'd only researched the overall tally. In the North West they lost 6,000 (Green Party up 14,000). In Yorkshire and Humber they lost nearly 3,000 (Greens up 10,000). It was Labour's loss that made the difference, of course. If the Greens had just gained another 5,000 in the North West, Nick Griffin would not now be an MEP. Hey ho.

:roll:
syberberg
Posts: 1089
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09

Post by syberberg »

I approached this as a "what if" scenario. I do believe that, in the highly unlikely event that they gained power, the BNP would certainly take Britain down the wrong path.

One of the first (and easiest) repatriations that they could enact would be to send the Kurdish population back home as they are no longer in any danger now Saddam and the Baath Party are no longer in control of Iraq. This would appeal to the British sense of fairness, and so-on down the list of asylum seekers, repatriating those who are no longer "in danger" (eg Croats, Bosnians and Kosavar-Albanians). If course, for the BNP that would include all people from said country, regardless of whether they sought asylum here or not. The start of the slippery slope.

However, I strongly doubt that the BNP will ever be able to gain enough support to form a Government.
Vortex
Posts: 6095
Joined: 16 May 2006, 19:14

Post by Vortex »

A while back the Germans rounded up (very politely) all their Croat war refugees in a surprise major countrywide operation and flew them back home.

Also recently, the Germans (again) notified the Kurd 'guestworkers' that if they continued to attack Turkish restaurants and travel agencies inside Germany then all Kurds would be shipped out. The trouble stopped ... the Kurdish parents of the rioting kids wanted to stay in Germany and so dealt with the problem!

Recently the Italians deported a stack of Romanian gipsies ... due to their alleged criminal tendencies.

So ... we have examples in our egalitarian Europe to use as precedents ...
User avatar
PS_RalphW
Posts: 6977
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Cambridge

Post by PS_RalphW »

I heard a staged discussion on iPM (radio 4) between a old gravedigger supporter of the BNP and an 18yo anti-racist campaigner who happened to live next door.

It was sad to hear two people talk past each other and totally fail to understand each other.

There was plenty of sloganeering on both sides, and I felt sorry for the gravedigger, because he had fallen into the usual trap of confusing correlation with causation, and no-one showed up the flaws in his reasoning. The 18yo was typically convinced of his own righteousness.

(The example I picked up on was the NHS. The gravedigger said it was overloaded because of all the immigrants it was treating. The truth is the exact reverse - without massive immigration of highly trained third world medical staff, the NHS would have imploded a decade ago.)
Jakell
Posts: 285
Joined: 10 Jan 2008, 20:36
Location: The North

Post by Jakell »

RalphW wrote:I heard a staged discussion on iPM (radio 4) between a old gravedigger supporter of the BNP and an 18yo anti-racist campaigner who happened to live next door.

It was sad to hear two people talk past each other and totally fail to understand each other.

There was plenty of sloganeering on both sides, and I felt sorry for the gravedigger, because he had fallen into the usual trap of confusing correlation with causation, and no-one showed up the flaws in his reasoning. The 18yo was typically convinced of his own righteousness.

(The example I picked up on was the NHS. The gravedigger said it was overloaded because of all the immigrants it was treating. The truth is the exact reverse - without massive immigration of highly trained third world medical staff, the NHS would have imploded a decade ago.)
I work in the NHS and this is very true, not just trained staff though. I am consistently impressed by the African nurses especially. Anyone who works in the NHS and remains racist is beyond redemption in my book.

Regarding the debate between the gravedigger and the younger guy, I would give the 18yo a pass as most people (especially politically motivated ones) can be self-righteous at that age. The older guy should know better (maybe he acquired his 'in-depth' knowledge of the NHS from dealing with the end results).

Unfortunately, the BNP are not over-burdened with having to make reasonable claims, their appeal comes from addressing a baser part of human nature.
User avatar
RenewableCandy
Posts: 12777
Joined: 12 Sep 2007, 12:13
Location: York

Post by RenewableCandy »

Leaving aside for a minute the fact that it's the Gravedigger's generation, and not our new arrivals, who are overloading the NHS at the mo...
Maybe your 50% figure is right, but, even if it is, does a wish for stronger immigration controls equate to racism? (Or for that matter a desire for repatriation measures?) I think many people would find that a strange leap of logic.
Interesting point, and I can give you a "sample of one" here: my other 1/2 is from E Europe and in favour of imm. controls, where he assumes (probably correctly) that they'd let him in, but for example tell someone who speaks no English and has no prospect of a job and bog-all interest in the UK as a country, to, erm, work at it and maybe next year...you get the idea.
Soyez réaliste. Demandez l'impossible.
Stories
The Price of Time
User avatar
DominicJ
Posts: 4387
Joined: 18 Nov 2008, 14:34
Location: NW UK

Post by DominicJ »

I'd go for "Their economic Policies are wrong and most of the rest of their policy is a bit crap as well really".
If it was an option.
(The example I picked up on was the NHS. The gravedigger said it was overloaded because of all the immigrants it was treating. The truth is the exact reverse - without massive immigration of highly trained third world medical staff, the NHS would have imploded a decade ago.)
True, BUT.
There is no reason we cant allow doctors and nurses to settle in the UK, but throw out crack dealing child rapists.
Its how most of the world does stuff. It doesnt have to be all or nothing.
I'm a realist, not a hippie
Post Reply