Population size 'green priority'

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isenhand
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Post by isenhand »

genoxy wrote:
isenhand wrote:I would disagree, the population we have at the moment is sustainable and we could even sustain a larger population. I would agree with clv101, behaviour is more important. We can??t sustain our current behaviour and we need a radical change in the way we do things and the way society is organised.

:)
Afraid I tend to disagree with the above - however important is the behaviour and energy consumption, there is also the issue of food and water, and it doesn't matter if you're Bill Gates or a tea plantation worker in Sri Lanka - you still need to eat and drink. With big problems emerging regarding fresh water supply and agricultural land, how can our planet support its population sustainably?
By changing the way we do things. At the moment we waste a large amount of our food and water. What we are doing now is not sustainable. There are ways that we can change to reach a more sustainable system. Things like ruralisation, keeping things local with a society based on local communities as building blocks, only producing what we need and producing things in a way that is in balance with nature etc. etc. etc.
genoxy wrote:
I think that if planet Earth could support a larger population, then it would have done so already at some point in our history.
That does not follow.

:)
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isenhand
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Post by isenhand »

fishertrop wrote:
RogerCO wrote:Of course how you get from here to there is quite another question...
I think Roger hits the real nail on the head.

You can move the numbers for "std of living" and "total population" backward and forward all you like but the real question is "how are we going to change from the current paradigm?".
There are steps already being made to shift from one paradigm to the other. Groups and individuals are setting up more sustainable ways of living. Mainly by moving to the country and getting a farm but also looking at solutions in towns. There are also attempt at linking theses groups together.
fishertrop wrote:
What would it take for the UK (let alone the US) to take the voluntary measures to cut total population, consumption, luxeries etc?
Well, I can think of two things that would help. One is for times to get hard, say for example a depression the other is to have a working model in place of an alternative way of life. If people can see an alternative that works and is better than the situation they are in I think they will be more willing to change over.

:)[/quote]
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

The chinese is not very concerned for the enviroment or ecology
I think the Chinese position is rather more complex. China is the only significant country to have had a long term population growth control strategy and it has been staggeringly successful in terms of limiting what threatened to be a disastrous population explosion. They are now installing more wind turbines and solar panels than any other country.
They are also swapping their bikes for cars.
genoxy
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Post by genoxy »

isenhand wrote:
genoxy wrote:
isenhand wrote:I would disagree, the population we have at the moment is sustainable and we could even sustain a larger population. I would agree with clv101, behaviour is more important. We can??t sustain our current behaviour and we need a radical change in the way we do things and the way society is organised.

:)
Afraid I tend to disagree with the above - however important is the behaviour and energy consumption, there is also the issue of food and water, and it doesn't matter if you're Bill Gates or a tea plantation worker in Sri Lanka - you still need to eat and drink. With big problems emerging regarding fresh water supply and agricultural land, how can our planet support its population sustainably?
By changing the way we do things. At the moment we waste a large amount of our food and water. What we are doing now is not sustainable. There are ways that we can change to reach a more sustainable system. Things like ruralisation, keeping things local with a society based on local communities as building blocks, only producing what we need and producing things in a way that is in balance with nature etc. etc. etc.
And of course, I agree with you on that one - however, I still don't believe we can sustain the size of the current population, certainly not a larger one, as you suggested above. Planet Earth can accommodate it, but not sustain it.

As an example, again, you can take the problems with sub-surface water, that can seem like a sustainable supply, whereas in fact it works very differently to surface water, and if over-exploited, could trigger a disaster.

Speaking of which, I have just watched a report on the BBC, about Mexico City sinking at an alarming rate, due to over usage of it's sub-surface water, and still, one in four people there, need to get their water from lorries as there isn't enough!
They say an intelligent person knows how to solve problems that a wise person would know how to avoid... Think about it in the context of our society for a moment :wink:
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Ballard
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Post by Ballard »

Small sustainable farms are only possible if the powers that be will allow them, there is a possibility that any alternative to argibusiness will be squashed to maintain control by big business etc.

This seems to be happening in the US, will we follow their lead, recent emphasis on 'regulation' would indicate that we will be more that willing to go down this route.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlasBabylon/message/23397
ABOUT THE NATIONAL ANIMAL ID SYSTEM (NAIS)

1. What is the NAIS?
A scheme hatched by the federal government and corporate agribusiness
to tag every animal in the US with an identity number and to track
every animal through processing. The excuse for it is the discovery of
two cases of mad cow disease (BSE or bovine spongiform encephalopathy).

2. What does it require?
It requires every farm in the country to register as a "premises."
Each registered premises will then have to register & tag every
alpaca, bison, cow, emu, goat, horse, llama, sheep, swine, and all
poultry. (As far as we know right now, catfish and goldfish are
exempted.) It provides no exemptions. If you have as much as one
chicken, you must register.

3. What does it mean?
This is not about controlling disease, it's about controlling farmers.
When social security was first introduced, the government promised the
people that the number would never be used for "identification
purposes." But today you can't get health care, insurance, a bank
account, an apartment, a job, or your tooth pulled without giving a
social security number.

4. Isn't it voluntary?
Only for now. The present USDA "Draft Strategic Plan" calls for
making it mandatory by January 2008. "Mandatory" means that they will
fine, arrest, or jail you if you refuse to comply. For the system to
work, the government obviously must force every farm and every farmer
to register every animal, and no one will be able to seek veterinary
care, transport, sell, or process animals without registry. In other
words, the freedom to farm that has belonged to mankind since Creation
will be abolished.

5. Who and what is behind the NAIS?
According to the USDA National Animal Identification System (NAIS)
Draft Strategic Plan 2005 to 2009, page 3, paragraph 1, at
http://animalagriculture.org/aboutNIAA/ ... ectory.asp,
"In 2002, the National Institute of Animal Agriculture (NIAA)
initiated meetings that led to the development of the U.S. Animal
Identification Plan (USAIP)." "Driving force ? The strongest driving
force for developing the NAIS is the risk of an outbreak of a foreign
animal disease (FAD). There is broad support for NAIS among
government, industry, and public stakeholders." ("Stakeholders are
defined as those individuals and groups in the public and private
sectors who are interested in and/or affected by the Department's
activities and decisions." http://www.ci.doe.gov/cigapol.htm.)

6. Who is the National Institute of Animal Agriculture? NIAA website
states, "The mission of the National Institute for Animal Agriculture
is to provide a forum for building consensus and advancing solutions
for animal agriculture and to provide continuing education and
communication linkages to animal agriculture professionals."
http://animalagriculture.org/aboutNIAA/ ... tsheet.asp. In fact,
the NIAA is a national agribusiness organization whose purpose appears
to be lobbying government for laws and policies that favour
agribusiness. A brief glance at the board of directors seems to
confirm that, since all are drawn from agribusiness companies,
industry groups, or schools of agriculture (which notoriously favour
corporate agribusiness over small farmers and sustainable
agriculture).
http://animalagriculture.org/aboutNIAA/ ... ff/BOD.asp. A list of
members leads to the same conclusion.
http://animalagriculture.org/aboutNIAA/ ... ectory.asp.

7. Who will bear the burden of NAIS?
Small farmers, and especially those engaged in the New Agriculture
("permaculture" or "sustainable agriculture"). First, they will be
forced to pay for NAIS, at least in part. Second, they will be forced
to work for NAIS. In the words of the NAIS Draft Strategic Plan, page
14, paragraph 3, "All groups will need to provide labour." NAIS will
add yet another cost disadvantage to small farmers and the New
Agriculture, and will make local agriculture less competitive with
agribusiness.
http://animalagriculture.org/aboutNIAA/ ... ectory.asp.

8. Won't NAIS help prevent and control disease?
No, NAIS isn't about preventing or controlling disease, it's about
marketing. When a case of mad cow disease (or any other disease)
surfaces, NAIS aims to protect meat producers' markets by tracking
animals through processing to "prove" that only a few animals are
affected and so prevent a public revulsion against their meat. The
most effective way to control disease is to produce meat and milk for
local instead of national markets and "closed herd" techniques.
=================================================

National Animal Identification System (NAIS)
Fact Sheet

The National Animal Identification System is being put into place "to
enable 48 hour traceback of the movements of any diseased or exposed
animal."

The NAIS consists of three components:

# Premises registration
# Animal identification
# Animal tracking

Those putting this into place do not consider you the owner of your
animals. Their approach to this is "We must ensure the participation
requirements of the NAIS not only provide the results necessary to
maintain the health of the national herd ?

The government is already encouraging voluntary registration on the radio.

"The USDA?will enact regulations by early 2008, requiring stakeholders
to identify their premises and animals. At that time, all animals
leaving their current premises must be identified with the AIN or
Group/Lot ID.

" Even with public funding, there will be costs to producers. Both
public and private funding will be required for the NAIS to become
fully operational. The Federal government is providing the standards,
national databases, and basic infrastructure.

# States and Tribes will register premises within their areas. They
will also support the administration of animal identification and
tracking systems that will feed information into the national database.
# Producers will identify their animals and provide necessary
records to the databases.
# Managers of shows and events will report a record of participating
animals.
# Market operators and processing plants will provide animal
location records.
# Service providers and third parties will assist by providing
animal identification and movement records to the NAIS on behalf of
their producer clients.
# All groups will need to provide labour."

The Timetable
2005:
? Premises registration: July 2005: All States operational
? Animal identification: August 2005: Initiate "840" number with AIN
tag manufacturers and AIN tag managers
? Animal tracking: January-December 2005: Test identification and
automated data collection technologies

2006:
? Premises Registration: April 2006: Performance measure: 25% of all
premises registered
? Animal identification: April 2006: AIN Management System fully
operational
? Animal tracking:
- July 2006: Interstate Certificate of Veterinary Inspection (ICVI)
operational in all States
- Focus on integration of management systems to forward animal
locations/sightings

2007
? Premises registration: April 2007: Premises registration "alert"
(scaled up communication campaign to create awareness of January 2008
requirements for premises registration).
? Animal identification: April 2007: Animal identification alert
(scaled up communication campaign to create awareness of January 2008
requirements for animal identification).

? Animal tracking:
- April 2007: Incentives to report interstate movements using ICVI or
electronic movement permit system.
- October 2007: Infrastructure established to collect animal
termination records at high capacity abattoirs.
- Initiate collection of animal movements at concentration points
(markets, feedlots, etc.).
- Expand the integration of management systems to forward animal
locations/sightings.

NAIS Strategic Plan - DRAFT Lines of Action

2008:
? Premises registration: January 2008: All premises registered with
enforcement (regardless of livestock movements).
? Animal Identification: January 2008: Animal identification required
with enforcement.
? Animal tracking:
- July 2008: Collect high percentage of animal termination
records at abattoirs (processing plants).
- July 2008: Collection and reporting all defined
movements.

2009:
- January 2009: Enforcement for the reporting of animal
movements.
- NAIS fully implemented and all components are mandatory.

Compiled from www.usda.gov/nais click on "Draft Strategic Plan" on
right side of the page under "What's New" heading.
peaky

Post by peaky »

Just another thought - let's imagine that we could sustain (no don't laugh) London expanding, with its current population density, to cover the entire UK. Would you then want to live in the UK?

There's more to being a living human being that simply ingesting enough fluid and nutrition to maintain a physical existence. I personally want quite a bit more than that - and I don't mean a DVD player, plasma screen and a Hummer :lol:
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mikepepler
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Post by mikepepler »

More from the BBC:
Earth lacks the water, energy and agricultural land to allow China and India to attain Western living standards, a US think-tank has warned.
The Worldwatch Institute said the booming economies of China and India are "planetary powers that are shaping the global biosphere".
Its State of the World 2006 report said the two countries' high economic growth hid a reality of severe pollution.
It said the planet's resources could not keep pace with such growth.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4604556.stm
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