Euro elections, 4th June

[gug]

A crap energy and cc policy doenst necessarily mean they're evil racists though.

Indeed.
However.
I forget who but someone clever said that each western nation should offer a home to a disposessed by global warming Bangldeshi family for each 10000tons of CO2 that it has emitted. The UK tops the league for per capita CO2 emission to date. Stand by to open the borders as the sea level rises. It's only fair.

Hopefully Nigel Ferago will have retired to the safety of the Maldives.

I dont actually disagree with that sentiment at all but clinging on to a "euro dream" (i'm not trying to be chippy, i cant currently think of better words at the moment) and pretending that everything is fine with the institution because it gives the green party a voice is probably not a long term solution.
If the whole thing is that bad then what real, actual prospects for change will come out of it.

"Oh, its corrupt, controlled by big business, undemocratic but we got a few policies through" is not ultimately going to tackle climate change in any real terms.

Im not anti-european and worldwide cooperation, in fact i'm all for it.
The current system in place at the moment appears to stink though.

I bet that german green MEP on the video makes all sorts of claims about how the EU will fight climate change too, whilst fiddling her expenses because up to 14000 euros a month is not enough to reimburse her for her commitment to change.

[gug]

That's not my point. Those rightwing parties are just vehicles for their leader. Take the leader away and the party would collapse.

I doubt if the man in the street could name ANY Green Party member. However, take Caroline Lucas away and the Green Party would continue.

You could have quite easily said the same about the green movement in the 60s.
"Oh, this is just a minority single issue party thats a flash in the pan."

I'm not defending ukip, just taking on your argument.
It wasn't until recently that the green party *had* a single "leader"
(their previous "leadership" policy being so successful that they decided to abandon it presumably).

It could be equally argued that if Caroline Lucas buggered off, the green party would lose out and lose profile, how you can say that UKip would suddenly die if Farage went is mere conjecture - irrespective of whether hes a serious politician or the devil incarnate.


Keir Hardie singularly started the "labour" movement (however that turned out). I imagine he was dismissed in a similar manner

[biffvernon]

I've just had two items arrived in the post, one nasty, one nice.

1. A BNP election leaflet that reads exactly like the policies of UKIP - no to EU and no to immigration.

2. A postcard from a fantastic woman, born in Yorkshire of Indian immigrant parents, she's been a key part of our Transition Town and is just off to India, foregoing her vet's salary to work for a vetinary charity. She promises to start a Transition Initiative out there.

[gug]

I've just had two items arrived in the post, one nasty, one nice.

1. A BNP election leaflet that reads exactly like the policies of UKIP - no to EU and no to immigration.

I've just recieved a fantasy leaflet from Il Duce which reads exactly like the policies of the UK labour party.
Apparently he's all for working hand in hand with business (corporatism/PFI) and is apparently keen on a strong european policy and in favour of "uniting" europe under a single political system with his european neighbours.
On expansion he favours an easterly direction to Albania and also wishes to include parts of Africa.
His policies on carbon fuels are unknown but he does like to hang around petrol stations.



And your point is ?

are they *actually* "exactly like" or are they superficially similar ?

By all means, argue on policy, but lobbing slightly lazy smears by insinuating an actual link between the bnp and ukip based on a similarity in overall policy is just, well, lazy.

[Jakell]

Here's an up-to-date article on my faves, the BNP:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 268999.ece

This lot seem to get an easy ride in here. Bypassing them to slag off UKIP (in this thread) is a big mistake (or is it ?!?!)

[contadino]

I'm not so sure either of them get an easy ride. The general feeling seems to be that the BNP and UKIP are wankers. But then the general feeling seems to be that all parties other than the Greens are wankers.

Reading that article just reinforces what seems to be a recurring theme - that if Labour stopped being so Tory, and went back to proper socialist policies, they'd regain a huge amount of support - at the expense of the likes of the BNP.

[biffvernon]

include parts of Africa.

The European Union including Africa would be daft. That's like allowing Israel into the Eurovision Song Contest.

[JohnB]

I'm not so sure either of them get an easy ride. The general feeling seems to be that the BNP and UKIP are wankers. But then the general feeling seems to be that all parties other than the Greens are wankers.

What politicians do in the privacy of their own bedrooms isn't really relevant. It's what they do to the rest of us that's important

[kenneal - lagger]

include parts of Africa.

The European Union including Africa would be daft. ........

We won't have to include Africa as most of them will be in Europe soon, especially if Global Warming really takes off.

...........fantasy leaflet from Il Duce.........On expansion he favours an easterly direction to Albania and also wishes to include parts of Africa.

Read your pre WWII history books, Biff. ':)'

[biffvernon]

Read your pre WWII history books, Biff. ':)'

Have done - no mention of Eurovision Song at all

[contadino]

The reference is to Mussolini's Ethiopian Adventure. It really didn't have anything to do with WWII, more the oft-used technique of "problems at home - start a war to divert attention."

[kenneal - lagger]

The reference is to Mussolini's Ethiopian Adventure. It really didn't have anything to do with WWII, more the oft-used technique of "problems at home - start a war to divert attention."

I did say "pre WWII history books".

[biffvernon]

and I'm trying to divert attention to the pressing issue of the day.

[2 As and a B]

* Turkey
* Sweden
* Israel
* Portugal
* Malta
* Finland
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Romania
* Armenia
* Iceland

* Azerbaijan
* Croatia
* Ukraine
* Lithuania
* Albania
* Moldova
* Denmark
* Estonia
* Norway
* Greece

O dear...

[Ludwig]

If you don't vote then you're guaranteed to get the representatives you deserve.

Is that a variation of "you've only got to worry if you've got something to hide"?

We'll get the same bunch of useless corrupt non-entities whichever way we vote. And what if you don't actually think our democracy is worth saving? We seem to regard it as self-evident that our system is great, even when face with overwhelming evidence that it's very far from being great. How will voting for a political party change that?

Democracy may not be perfect, but you'll miss it when it's gone.

As someone said on the wireless the other day, if this was France we'd be on to the Sixth Republic. Says a lot about how our revolutionary zeal has been neutered.

When was there ever any revolutionary zeal in Britain?