The Specials

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 21 Apr 2009, 08:11

There is no point Biff. He never listens.

foodinistar wrote:DJ is, and I suspect always will be, arrogant and ignorant. Well the two go together don't they.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 21 Apr 2009, 08:34

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchism
If your saying they arent the dominant form of anarchists, fine, I'll retract my comment with appology, but the reason I'm very clear to say, I'm a libertarian, not an anarchist, is because most Anarchists are little more than communist thugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_anarchism
Theres even "Green Anarchists", who seem to believe in, well, an extreme form of state destruction of the economy.
So, can anyone link me to some anarchists who dont believe they should be able to steal my property? That of course includes those who dont think I should be able to own anything, which is the same.
???

No?
So, perhaps you can explain the fundamental difference between the way an individual anarchirt and a communist state view my property?

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 21 Apr 2009, 11:33

http://lpuk.org/

The UK has a Libertarian Party again, lets hope this one lasts longer than a week.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 21 Apr 2009, 13:28

foodinistar wrote:There is no point Biff. He never listens.

foodinistar wrote:DJ is, and I suspect always will be, arrogant and ignorant. Well the two go together don't they.

I expect you're right. If he can't understand the use of the apostrophe there's not much chance he'll come to grips with political philosophy.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 21 Apr 2009, 13:50

So politics is the preserve of those who didnt attend a state educational facilty?
Us mere proles should simply be quiet and do as were told?
Sadly that is a normal view of those on the "left", even if it is one they dont usualy publicise.

DJ is, and I suspect always will be, arrogant and ignorant. Well the two go together don't they.

Its easy to say, but no one has yet offered proof of my ignorance, whereas I can, if challenged, go and find pictures of people waving a red and black flag whilst throwing the chairs threw the windows of a McDonalds.
I do not consent to eat there, because I'm a libertarian, "anarchists" deny others their consent to eat there, because they wish to impose their will on others.
Without Rulers?
They see themselves as rulers.

But, as I said, If I'm wrong and am horribly libeling the anarchist movement, when provided with proof of such, I will be happily to retract and apologise.

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 21 Apr 2009, 14:52

biffvernon wrote:
foodinistar wrote:There is no point Biff. He never listens.

foodinistar wrote:DJ is, and I suspect always will be, arrogant and ignorant. Well the two go together don't they.
I expect you're right. If he can't understand the use of the apostrophe there's not much chance he'll come to grips with political philosophy.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 21 Apr 2009, 17:06

DominicJ wrote: So, perhaps you can explain the fundamental difference between the way an individual anarchirt and a communist state view my property?

In a communist state the state would own your property, and throw you in jail for re-education.

In an anarchist community, land ownership (or rather exclusive usage) may or may not be respected by each community. If your will didn't hold sway in yours, you could always go to another one and maybe get an even nicer place to live. Probably there'll be loads of posh apartments in London available when everyone heads back to the land for food

Can't really blame landowners from fighting leftists any more than you'd blame an absolute monarch for opposing democratisation. Then again, I couldn't blame leftists for attempting to take back the land that was stolen and privatised, creating the debacle of usury, rents and the necessity of endless economic growth.

Come the revolution, someone is always up against the wall.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 21 Apr 2009, 17:18

DominicJ wrote: Without Rulers?
They see themselves as rulers.

I guess you could say that when an oppressed person sits down in the road and blocks traffic they are imposing their will over that of others. Does that make them somehow more culpable of authoritarianism than the society that oppresses them? No.

Fighting systemic oppression by exerting one's own will is an act of freedom. Would you see yourself as setting yourself up as an authoritarian ruler if you fired your shotgun at the leftists coming to lawfully take away your property? I doubt it.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 01 May 2009, 19:42

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/05/429048.html

Around 4.15am this morning around 100 commandos stormed Ravens Ait island

they arrived in 27 black zodiac inflatables

they were wearing helmets, balaclavas, and flackjackets, and carried sidearms

overhead a low flying helicopter used thermal imaging to locate the approximately 20 residents who were sleeping at the time

the commandos kicked down doors and took people outside and off the island

the entrance to the tunnel and treehouse were guarded and nobody was in them at the time

most people left peacefully, but a few resisted eviction and were arrested

the last resister climbed on top of the outdoor marquee and the police pulled it down to arrest him

by 7.30am all residents were off the island, but lots of their posessions are still on the island

at least 50 more regular Kingston police have since arrived and are currently on the island

the former residents and their supporters are currently on the Surbiton riverbank in good spirits enjoying the sunshine, and request more supporters to join them to show local and national news crews how much support they have for their eco community centre plans

http://www.ravensait.org.uk

GordyJ1984 · Post by **GordyJ1984** » 03 May 2009, 01:57

I fear I am turning into a Communist with all this peak oil stuff.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 03 May 2009, 08:22

A bit of background:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 71326.html

and the local news and discussion:
http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news ... s_evicted/

MrG · Post by **MrG** » 18 Sep 2009, 16:16

Anarchists are thugs who get off on imposing their will on others through force.
Some of us anarchists might find that comment offensive. You might start your education on the subject at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist, from which I take

etc...

Its the common misconception... along with the other common misconception that anarchy = the movie "mad max"

That and the stock Daily Mail reader response - "So if your so against the current system what would you put in its place"

The first is a misconception for the same reason that the statement "All sheep are black" is clearly false - some sheep are black not all.

Just because some people that refer to themselves as anarchists are thugs it does not follow that all anarchists are thugs

The mad max misconception comes from the belief that most of our fellow human beings are all thugs (not just anarchists!). This is a belief put about by governments via the media in order to legitimise their control. Actually I find most human beings to be pretty nice fellows when you go and speak to them

The third one is probably based on the same sort of logic that leads people to talk about "The Anarchist Movement" after all in the words of crass... a movement is a system

Anyway the crux of that one is that I do not need to provide an alternative in order to percieve that the system in which I live is sick and corrupt and is going to lead us all into disaster

NO I do not have all the answers. I do not profess to be that clever - but it does not mean I have to pretend that what we have is a good thing and if it means that I believe the best thing for myself and my immediate community is to try and ignore that system as best we can and organise ourselves then that makes us anarchists (in a non black flag waving sense)

And so be it

Because when the shit hits the fan (which I believe all of us on here are agreed that it surely will) those governments are not going to look after us they are going to leave us to sink or swim.

I have more faith in the good people around me than in any c**t politician in a suit no matter what COLOUR tie he is wearing

And yes that does make me an anarchist

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 18 Sep 2009, 17:36

MrG wrote: I have more faith in the good people around me than in any c**t politician in a suit no matter what COLOUR tie he is wearing

And yes that does make me an anarchist

I don't think it does. An anarchist believes that the total absence of government gives rise to the best possible society. Do you honestly believe that?

I believe the total absence of government would give rise to a society as bad as the worst type of autocracy. Anything between these two extremes is better than either of them.

I know it is boring to say this, but just because a system is highly imperfect does not mean that it is not worth having.

Even countries with highly corrupt governments get by, because however inefficiently, somewhere along the line there are things that only governments can do.

Does no law enforcement, no schools, no hospitals, no rubbish collection, no benefits, no courts, no national defence all sound good to you?

Most governments are in some measure corrupt and always have been. Saying that no government is better than a corrupt government is like saying you'd rather starve than eat stale bread.

MrG · Post by **MrG** » 30 Sep 2009, 20:00

I don't think it does. An anarchist believes that the total absence of government gives rise to the best possible society. Do you honestly believe that?

I'm not sure.. I certainly didn't used to but now I think maybe I do

Anyway it isn't really my point. My point is that for the everyday man in the street the time for political positions is LONG gone. From reading some of your posts I'd say you'd probably forgive me for saying that you tend towards the doomer end of the spectrum. In the fast crash which you fear we are headed for anarchy anyway so I believe a little self organisation now will go a long way in the not too distant future.

What I certainly do not think there is any point in doing at this stage is arguing the finer points of what constitutes anarchism or any other "ism". This is why matey's comments got me into rant mode! We have reached a time for doing things not talking about them and I believe our only hope is to stick together.

I believe the total absence of government would give rise to a society as bad as the worst type of autocracy. Anything between these two extremes is better than either of them.

This is the "power vacum" argument.. this is my dear old dads argument. You may both be right - I sincerly hope you aren't and I don't think we really have any option but to hope that your not. There are historical precedents to suggest that you may indeed be right I'll give you that.

The anarchist perspective that I am putting foward (and thats what it is really a perspective rather than a political ideology) is based really on the belief that actually (most) people are fundementally good. From that comes the idea that actually we can look after ourselves. Yes I concede that there are evil people in the world.. I don't know if you were ever involved with the rave scene but if you were do you remember what happened to the rapist at castle morton?

Does no law enforcement, no schools, no hospitals, no rubbish collection, no benefits, no courts, no national defence all sound good to you?

No law enforcement - see above
No schools - DEFINITLY school and education are quite certainly not the same thing
No national defence - DEFINITLY how about no borders either

Rubbish collection... I reckon we could manage to handle that ourselves actually and maybe even turn it into something useful. In fact I think that'd be a great place to start right now.

Even countries with highly corrupt governments get by however inefficiently,

so do the small anarchist communities that already exist. They manage to sort things out in the same way that things get sorted out in a family.. by bitching and moaning at each other