Why the general population don't get it

[fifthcolumn]

Well, if you don't see that Peak Oil means the collapse of the financial system, I say you haven't understood the financial system.

This is probably why you annoy people.

Well I clearly annoy you, I don't know about anyone else.

No you don't mate. I emphathize with you and I would gladly buy you a pint down the winchester. I get that your sense of humour is somewhat hardened by the seriousness of the situation that you believe is coming and I in no way personally mean to diminish your position, but I *would* like you to understand how it probably looks to others who are less receptive to the peak oil message.

[Ludwig]

Look mate, this is a forum for discussion of Peak Oil and if you think I'm a know-it-all twit for daring to disagree with you, that's your problem.

And kindly quit the straw man bullshit about my claiming to know "to ten decimal places how f***ed we all are".

Please.
First of all, I'm not attacking you personally (although it seems like you think I am). I'm describing how I personally would feel if I had someone rant at me and what my likely response would be.

It was perfectly clear you had me in mind, viz. your statement elsewhere ("this is why you annoy people"). If it was purely hypothetical, why even mention it?

Try for a second to put yourself into somebody else's shoes mate. It will do you some good.

You seem very sensitive to people disagreeing with you, that's all I'll say. If you can't take criticism of your arguments, don't post.

The Know It All Twit

[fifthcolumn]

You seem very sensitive to people disagreeing with you, that's all I'll say. If you can't take criticism of your arguments, don't post.

The Know It All Twit

Actually mate. *I'm* the know it all twit.
I pissed off several members of my family and lost friends over peak oil, because of my RANTING about doom.

I'm over that now. I was trying to help. If you don't want my help and don't want my gentle poke in the ribs, great.

[Ludwig]

Despite this, I'm pretty hopeful we will collectively adapt to future shortages and hardships without society collapsing entirely; to believe otherwise is just unbearably stressful. That's my religion, not PO doom.

I certainly don't dwell on the possibility of societal collapse, but I don't deny it either. My credo is "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst."

In some ways I think we've got used to holding life too dear - perhaps the decline of religion has something to do with it. For most of history, life for most people was cheap, and the threat of death viewed not as a tragedy but as a pervasive feature of life. The result, I suspect, is that people appreciated living in the moment more than they do now.

Who knows, once we're rid of this pervasive myth of 'progress' to which we're presently yoked, all manner of things may be possible. Might take a while though.

I read a good quote about progress the other day:

"The idea of progress is detrimental to the life of the spirit, because it encourages us to view our lives, not under the aspect of eternity, but as moments in a universal process of betterment. We do not, therefore, accept our lives for what they are, but instead consider them always for what they might someday become."
- John Gray

[happychicken]

I read a good quote about progress the other day:

"The idea of progress is detrimental to the life of the spirit, because it encourages us to view our lives, not under the aspect of eternity, but as moments in a universal process of betterment. We do not, therefore, accept our lives for what they are, but instead consider them always for what they might someday become."
- John Gray

I read that too, in a Guardian book review about his new book "Gray's Anatomy". Sounds like a good read

[Bandidoz]

I would gladly buy you a pint down the winchester.

Ahaa the Shaun-of-the-dead Zombie-hordes scenario

[fifthcolumn]

I would gladly buy you a pint down the winchester.

Ahaa the Shaun-of-the-dead Zombie-hordes scenario

[snow hope]

Despite this, I'm pretty hopeful we will collectively adapt to future shortages and hardships without society collapsing entirely; to believe otherwise is just unbearably stressful. That's my religion, not PO doom.

I certainly don't dwell on the possibility of societal collapse, but I don't deny it either. My credo is "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst."

In some ways I think we've got used to holding life too dear - perhaps the decline of religion has something to do with it. For most of history, life for most people was cheap, and the threat of death viewed not as a tragedy but as a pervasive feature of life. The result, I suspect, is that people appreciated living in the moment more than they do now.

Who knows, once we're rid of this pervasive myth of 'progress' to which we're presently yoked, all manner of things may be possible. Might take a while though.

I read a good quote about progress the other day:

"The idea of progress is detrimental to the life of the spirit, because it encourages us to view our lives, not under the aspect of eternity, but as moments in a universal process of betterment. We do not, therefore, accept our lives for what they are, but instead consider them always for what they might someday become."
- John Gray

I agree with this post. I certainly wouldn't have 15 years ago, but they say the older you get the clearer you see things.......

[marknorthfield]

It's a very interesting quote, if a little opaque - I'll have to read it in context.

I was thinking specifically about 'progress' in terms of society's unspoken assumptions about the future. I've grown up in an era which seemed to suggest only two possible outcomes for (western) humankind: endless scientific and technological development leading to the colonisation of space, or nuclear armageddon. That paradigm still exists, but it's getting shakier as reality intrudes. What follows its likely demise is a mystery.

On a personal level, I have no problem with 'betterment' if that means 'better skilled'. I'd like to be a more able gardener, musician, writer, cyclist etc. because these things make me feel most alive. I'd also like to live in a 'better skilled' society in terms of systems resilience, effective co-operation and overall politeness, but I don't pretend to know how to achieve these beyond getting to know my neighbours and being polite myself. I'm currently trying to overcome my solitary tendencies in order to become more actively involved with green issues and a possible TT initiative, following that sensible advice on being the change you wish to see in the world.

I imagine the quote is implying a more abstract 'betterment' which is necessarily vague for political or religious purposes, and thus defers a thorough appreciation of what we actually have. That rings true to me. More pertinently (in PO terms), this deferral implies that 'progress' (or 'destiny', perhaps) will see us through any problem that might threaten our glorious trajectory; again, the space age paradigm.

I should add that I have no over-riding issue with science and technology (as I sit here merrily tapping away at my laptop!), simply the widespread perception that they will save us from ourselves.

[PS_RalphW]

This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hollow_Men

[Benubi]

"The idea of progress is detrimental to the life of the spirit, because it encourages us to view our lives, not under the aspect of eternity, but as moments in a universal process of betterment. We do not, therefore, accept our lives for what they are, but instead consider them always for what they might someday become."
- John Gray

Great opening OT Prono 007 and great quote Ludwig. John Gray is one of the most interesting writers in popular philosophy because his work is so disillusioned with the dominant mindset of Indo-European countries as a whole. He may not be considered an intellectual heavyweight but he's by far a more relevant writer than the great majority of popular and academic philosophers. Anyway...

I find that, seeing what happens when people are confronted with strong evidence of an oncoming energy crisis & climate crisis, its astounding how little people are able to absorb those ideas. I am astounded by my own inability to do so also – a subject of much musing when I'm alone and also why I'm fascinated by 'doom' in an the attempt to drum it into my thick skull. Either the evidence is ignored or the response to it, even after many months to digest the significance, is so inappropriate & disproportionate in relation to the severity & scope of the potential impact that it amazes me.

Of those I know personally who consider the problems as real the most genuine explanations people have given me when I've suggested they're still not 'getting it' boil down to feeling helpless – unable to change anything. I'm convinced by this partly because it is always expressed without pretence and its also the position I find myself in when I try hard to contemplate the significance of a matter like climate change and how I should respond. I feel as helpless before it as I would any impersonal force of nature like a huge earthquake or volcanic eruption. I can run and hide, seek safety, but I can't stop it. Maybe I could appeal to supernatural forces to save me or intervene some other way but I've never had much faith.

Sure, we can cut greenhouse gases, shift to renewable energy, reduce our consumption to sustainable levels, stop polluting the rivers, seas, sky and earth, cease exploiting everything around us as if its our divine right, bring industrialisation to a halt, come to see life on earth as a giant inter-dependent synergistic holarchy, etc. but we're not going to do things like that in a collectively coordinated enough way to save ourselves in time.

A lot of people are trying to do what they can, even making great personal sacrifices in some cases, but until there are short-term social & economic advantages in doing so the majority will not follow because the long-term advantages are just for too long-term to enter into everyday consideration. And anyway, the powers of reasoned argument & scientific evidence have little influence en-masse. Irrationality & cultural conditioning are the great movers.

[2 As and a B]

People have got pretty much the same attitude to PO as they have to death and (assuming they know about death) I don't see people going around with glum faces or in a panic about their imminent demise. Well, a few do perhaps.

[Ludwig]

People have got pretty much the same attitude to PO as they have to death and (assuming they know about death) I don't see people going around with glum faces or in a panic about their imminent demise. Well, a few do perhaps.

Yes, despite what Fifthcolumn thinks, I am currently just trying to enjoy as much of life as I can, I'm not going around in a constant state of gloom. There's definitely a sadness and a fear at the back of my mind, but they don't stop me appreciating life.

[Benubi]

I was thinking specifically about 'progress' in terms of society's unspoken assumptions about the future. I've grown up in an era which seemed to suggest only two possible outcomes for (western) humankind: endless scientific and technological development leading to the colonisation of space, or nuclear armageddon. That paradigm still exists, but it's getting shakier as reality intrudes. What follows its likely demise is a mystery.

We're not just witnessing the beginning of the demise of the space age paradigm but all manner of paradigms involving progress towards some glorious (if unknown) goal. Its likely the loss of irrational beliefs in progress will be substituted with other probably more primitive kinds of irrational belief.

I say more primitive because much of our efforts at ethical, intellectual and emotional development has been caught up with the idea it would or could lead to some wonderful place in this world, in this life. Humanism has been part of that development, helped along by that vision of the future. As that vision diminishes together with our standard of living so too will faith in humanism and some of its great fruits – only we'll still need to believe in a better tomorrow to keep us going.

Expect a large rise in popularity for promises of rewards in the next world, in the next life.

People have got pretty much the same attitude to PO as they have to death and (assuming they know about death) I don't see people going around with glum faces or in a panic about their imminent demise. Well, a few do perhaps.

Yeah, despite it being inevitable people don't often think or like to talk about about death unless its apparently going to occur rather soon. Unlike PO though at least most of us realise, at least superficially, that we will die.

[emordnilap]

Benubi, I find your post very sad even though I can sympathise with what you're saying.

Some of the great advances in humanism, to me, signal a developing maturity in the human species. It would be a sorry shame to lose such progress.