Are we scary?

[Andy Hunt]

Well, are we? It seems to me that here on Powerswitch we like to think of ourselves as the 'friendly face' of peak oil discussion, unlike 'those nutters over at LATOC'.

But at least one new poster recently has said that she thinks we are a scary bunch, which quite surprised me TBH.

Maybe it's because I've been a member of the forum for a long time, since way before this stuff entered the 'mainstream', and it was just a little family of gentle eccentrics.

But I can see how the tone of the forum has changed in recent times, with attitudes becoming more 'earnest'. This seems to have coincided with a lot of predictions which have been made here over the years actually coming to pass.

But if people are scared to post here, then to me that's not a good thing, it puts us in the same kind of bracket as the LATOC nutters.

So what's going on? And is there anything which can be done? Or is it simply a scary forum now because it is a scary subject to discuss?

Answers on a postcard . . .

[emordnilap]

This has been a useful forum for the friendly exchange of useful self-sufficiency ideas (and still is).

RGR, though a largely unhelpful poster in that regard, was just about put-up-with-able for amusement purposes.

However over the last few months there's been far too high a noise-to-signal ratio thoughout the site, enough to put long-timers off, never mind newcomers.

We've largely baulked against heavy moderation but it's possible many of us feel there should be some kind of filtering or rating going on. What do you think? I'm largely against it unless it puts the forum back on track and attracts newcomers.

There again, if the forum has become something it wasn't, that's democracy.

[DominicJ]

If your throwing barbs you might as well name targets.

There have definatly been several pretty strong worded arguements, that have devolved into quite childish level of grudge holding, one only has to watch foodinistar follow me round the site chanting liar for that to be obvious.

Group think has been challenged and the group reacted.

You could of course vote to expel Myself, RGR, Fifth Column, and anyone else who doesnt think a state managed descent is the only option, but the site would suffer for it, in my view.
Just as it would if Billhook were expelled.

[SILVERHARP2]

I cant say I’ve noticed a difference , there still seems to be the same mix of posts. In my case my perceptions might have changed over the last year so I am more interested in financial issues rather then worrying about if I’ll be able to fill the car next year , so I maybe filtering the posts I read in a different manner.

People in general are more nervous now , I overheard a couple of people talking yesterday and it might have been half in jest but she was saying that she was glad that they had enough land to grow veg if they had to. , another person I was talking to said they’ll be ok because they their family have a farm , if the mainstream are getting gloomy I hope PS’ers don’t feel they have to up it more gears to hang on to their Doomer status.

[Prono 007]

Or is it simply a scary forum now because it is a scary subject to discuss?

Well that's really the question. Is it scary because we're overly aggressive in debate? I don't think so. There's plenty of fiercer forums around.

Maybe because we're essentially an institution with institutionalised view points - that is highly knowledgable about peak oil and it's likely impact. For someone outside that will always be a bit difficult and alienating. You fear you're gonna say something that everyone else thinks is stupid.

But for me peak oil is definitely a very scary subject to discuss. And the fact that what we've been reading about it for years and now it's unfolding just as the experts warned is ... frankly pretty terrifying.

The best way is to surely ask the person that said that.

[contadino]

Different people react to PO in vastly different ways.

The poster who said that we're scary (if it's the same one I'm thinking of) was more taken back by the negative feedback that came following an advert for an online shop, rather than the "run for the hills" mentality of a minority of our members.

There are a few people on here who are clearly trolls, and there are more irrelevant threads nowadays than say, a year ago. The irrelevant threads shouldn't be a problem - it's not like anyone's making anyone read them. The trolls may be a problem to some, but letting them continue is better than any of the alternatives IMHO.

[dotty]

I think it was me that said you were scary
Soooo

It's not the doomer aspect I'm pretty doomy myself albeit in a scatty laugh about it sort of way.

So I just said to my bloke how do I explain what I mean without causing offence...and he said say exactly that but leave out the ar****les bit

What I said to him was:

They come across as guardian reading intellectual holier than thou oh so worthy up their own ........

Please don't want to hit me or hate me I'm just being honest and for what it's worth I do actually read the guardian and I'm not totally thick so If I feel like that...well...

I'll try to explain what I mean. I suppose I 'discovered' peak oil (and to be honest for me it's only one of, 'important' but one of many things we need to worry about) in 1983 when as a very worthy student I did a fact sheet for a new branch of friends of the earth and I seem to remember that the predicted amount of oil left would last for 50yrs...but it wasn't just oil it was tin and other things...I was very worried and I looked like a nutter for years. I think that prediction for it's time was probably spot on as this is before personal computers, before mobile phones before such a consuming society.

The thing is that the very people who really need to understand what is going on with the world will just switch off when confonted with intellectual argument...Maybe in some ways it's better if the 'sheeple' don't get the reality and they certainly won't if everything they read is intellectualised.

If you really want people to be interested and to take notice and ultimately to act then you have to appeal to the whole spectrum of society. Because I'm not in the UK I do all my media reading online because I don't physically pay for my newspaper I can read them all this is what I read: FT, Times, Guardian, Daily mail, Sun, Mirror...You know most of them write articles about the same stuff just aimed at their readership...It makes me laugh

Have a guess which is my favourite paper (for reading not laughing)

I haven't taken a flight since 1995...I'm fully aware of the positive ecological side of this but I tend to say to people I don't fly because they don't provide parachutes ...I love the train and if you can explain that you take the train because it's lovely to feel like you are really going somewhere and that for me it's part of the process...Then people can get that they gain not lose...

I do guerilla veg drops in summer dumping my excess on peoples doorsteps...I've got at least two families growing veg and dumping on me because of this...

I walk, I walk a lot...Mostly I say it's cos I'm losing my sight (which is sorta true) and also because I'm getting fat But I've got people walking with me and car sharing going on

I cook, I cook a lot...and I cook simple and easy and cheap and so people want to know how I did it.

I sew and I sew old rags into new things...it makes people rise to the challenge of being creative.

So what am I trying to say here? I think I'm saying that this affects everyone...being clever is great but being practical without being judgemental is useful

Well if you got to the bottom of this post you'll realise I'm a bit waffly

[Aurora]

Dotty, you're my kinda gal.

[goslow]

Dotty, thanks for your honest post, and welcome to PS. I am still quite new here myself and don't feel part of the in-crowd as such, but have really appreciated the wealth of knowledge that has been discussed on this forum, lots of really practical stuff, and find the quality of discussion about current or ethical issues really stimulating. I think its got a bit more nasty in places lately as we seem to be getting more name calling etc when folk get irritated with certain troublemakers, but if I understand correctly, that is not what is bothering you?

For sure, a lot of what folk talk about here in terms of smallholding, house renovations, wood burners, solar seems out of reach of the ordinary joe especially if they just lost their job. Frugal living is a cheap alternative for sustainable living but not exactly enticing for most people. Perhaps that is better covered in other internet forums specifically dedicated to that.

If win-win, instant reward scenarios can be identified (e.g. save money when you insulate, avoid stress on the train compared with flying) then this is the best way to get at least some of the masses on board. Preaching never works, which is why I am bit unsure about this new climate change film, good though it might be. Can't we have a film that is fun, practical, and not preachy for a change?

[RenewableCandy]

I was accused of being scary (but not on this forum) just the other day when talking about the water problems in a country to which fellow dinner-guests were thinking of relocating. OK so I'm scary. But I'm probably not holier-than-thou and I don't read the Guardian.

I think people are confusing the messenger with the message here. There are some people who've got audibly hairier on this forum over the past few months, but I think that's because we're all rather stressed over what's happening: and any psycho (logist, sorry) will tell you that stress is greater if you can appreciate how bad is the thing that's coming.

Hmm middle-clarse, well, not much I can do about that. I can't change my parents' professions (though I have just given mine up!).

[hardworkinghippy]

Hi there Dotty,

You and me know each other pretty well and we're alike in feeling the need to get down to the nitty-gritty question, "What the hell are we going to do? " - because practical stuff is what we're both good at.

My experience of the forum has been really positive. I visit PowerSwitch several times a day although I don't post very often. The amount of information and knowledge that the regular posters in here have and the commitment that they have to providing other people with information is commendable. Of course there are a few nutters or people who'd argue with their shadow, and the inevitable "point scorers", but on the whole it's quite rare that a thread isn't worth reading all the way through.

The facts and figures, flowcharts and tables are all good stuff and help me a lot to explain Peak Oil to people who want to know more but would never dream of coming into a forum like this.

Peak Oil is really scary but it has to be faced up to and I like to be in the company of people who understand why I'm so serious about self-sufficiency and DIY and being able to cope psychologically with the unknown.

I remember a posting that somebody made a while ago saying he felt like someone walking about with a sandwich board with "The end is nigh" written on it. I use this forum as a place to come to when I feel like that man.

[dotty]

RC: Nothing wrong with being aware of water problems. We made a decision not to move futher south due to water issues.

There's nothing wrong with reading the guardian

If you are the messenger then you owe it to the recipient to try to present the message in the most constructive way...Your stress is at the end of the day your problem...Do you want to freak everybody or do you want to help them?

Freaking them is easy helping them is more difficult...

What do you do...oh you are going to die and it's all a heap of shit or give some sense of what might be acheived.

You can do a lot about your class just by acknowledging the influences it's had on your life...and accepting that while you might have not had lots advantage understanding that others might have had less

Aurora and Goslow:

[fifthcolumn]

Well I don't think this site is more scary per se than latoc but it has the same doom infused "we're all going to die" mentality.

The disconnect for me is that it has the "we'll muddle through if we all get together" mentality that is common to the UK and I like that better than the American sites.

The groupthink thing is alive here and it overlaps with the American sites (we're all doomed etc) but the difference is that we have the very British (European?) idea that "the gubbment will save us".

I don't think the gubbment will save us at all. I think the gubbment will make things much, much worse and in fact are 100% responsible for the banking crisis. The banks are effectively part of the government and have been setting policy for years.

I am fairly happy that I noticed that there are a couple other posters (Dominic and Silverharp stand out) who share my opinion (lack of disdain perhaps) for the market and have a decent understanding of economics.
Silverharp doesn't tend to get tore in and start slagging like Dominic and I do though.

I don't get riled up by RGR I find him entertaining and I think he's quite a bit more knowledgeable about oil than many on here.

What I do like as well is the sense of community and Britishness this site has (with a nod of the head to our Irish and European friends too).

[2 As and a B]

If your throwing barbs you might as well name targets.

There have definatly been several pretty strong worded arguements, that have devolved into quite childish level of grudge holding, one only has to watch foodinistar follow me round the site chanting liar for that to be obvious.

Group think has been challenged and the group reacted.

You could of course vote to expel Myself, RGR, Fifth Column, and anyone else who doesnt think a state managed descent is the only option, but the site would suffer for it, in my view.

Just to make my position clear. DominicJ believes in an unregulated free market. I have no problem with that. It is his right to believe whatever he wishes. And it is my right to challenge his beliefs. What I object to and will always point out is the use of slurs, distortions of the truth and outright lies that seem - to me - to be deliberate attempts to use emotive language to create division, discord and disruption. In short, trolling.

You could of course vote to expel Myself, RGR, Fifth Column, and anyone else who doesnt think a state managed descent is the only option

This is an example of his trolling. I don't think a state managed descent is the only option. I think it is about the worst option!

Does ANYONE here think that a state managed descent is the only option?

And for the record, I wouldn't vote to expel anyone.

[marknorthfield]

I'm a bit of a lurker here (apart from the last week when I've been home ill rather a lot...) but I have read this forum aplenty over the last four years or so. There does seem to be more ill-temperedness than there used to be, usually centered around certain individuals whose forthright opinions and combative natures lead to playground-worthy spats in certain threads. A shame.

That said, compared to comments left on newspapers' website blogs and such like the overall impression seems restrained, with generous dashes of humour here and there helping things along considerably. The modern affliction of internet invisibility encouraging the lowest standards of civility imaginable hasn't taken root much, thankfully. Maybe it'z coz we iz British... Or a bit green between the ears. I dunno.

Yes, the subject matter is scary, or at the very least daunting, to a newcomer. Not a pill that can be sweetened much, unfortunately. For all my lack of forum confidence, I was very glad to have found Powerswitch when I did: it's an oasis of relative sanity.

(edited to add a comma!)